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sammy8887

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#30 : January 09, 2009, 01:48:11 PM

Again, I know these press conferences are nothing but gibberish and he won’t unleash our master plan, but how anyone can defend this guy is beyond me. 

I believe it's similar (but not necessarily as accurate) to the way some defend Garcia...

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#31 : January 09, 2009, 01:50:02 PM

He is at the point in his tenure here that he needs to actually accomplish something instead of talk about how first McKay and now Injuries have set the team back. �

This PC wasn't going to be able to accomplish that...it was only going to be talk b/c that's what PCs are...

From what this PC's message was, it sounded like those that would like more/different action in the offseason can be encouraged...

I agree that a PC can't do much at all.  I am not sure why they even have them.

As for the message, I would suggest that a transcript from past PC's didn't say: In the draft we plan on taking most of our selections at least one round before anyone would have, and inf FA we plan on signing a few budget FA's and pray to all things good and kind that somehow they turn out.

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#32 : January 09, 2009, 01:51:48 PM

And as far as the statement of not bring in a player making more than the player next to him? �Wow. �So I guess that rules out the top 25 free agents from landing in Tampa. �I like how he tries to cover his tracks with the Dre Moore pick. �You trade up to get him and say he is a red shirt player. �A 4th round pick, red shirt player. �Come on Bruce, only a blind follower on this board would believe that.
Have you looked at the players picked after Moore? Only Tashard Choice, who I was high on, did much of anything. Those are the breaks with 4th round players. They all have flaws. Some are physical, some are mental. Rather than settle on some player with very limited athletic upside, the Bucs gambled on someone with elite athletic talent and are hoping they can get his head in the game. I think it was worth it.

That is why the Dre Moore pick was worth it given the Bucs deviated somewhat with the safe pick mentality in the 2008 draft.




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#33 : January 09, 2009, 01:53:38 PM

Risk Option #1  -  Sign 10 "bargin players" and hope 1 turns into something special... but the realty is, these types of players were cut from other NFL teams for a reason.  Sure, maybe 2 or 3 of these bargin players become slightly better than average, and one or two of them might be pro bowl alternates..  big deal.  but the team isnt winning squat because those alternate pro-bowlers are surrounded by marginal players.   maybe you end up with a 9-7 record and maybe a Division crown, but get creamed in the playoffs because other teams just have better players than you do....  especially on offense. 

Risk Option #2 -  Sign 5  "expensive players" but face a risk that 1 or more of them may end up being worthless.    Sure, you run the risk of wasting money, and maybe you get burned a little on cap room, but cap problems aren't that hard to fix..  you can always go "bargin shopping" next season, which the Bucs are good at.  There's plenty of CFL and Arena league players we can sign the following year..  but at least youre trying.  However, sign 5 stud players, and there is plenty of UPSIDE as well, your team might actually dominate your opponents and go far in the playoffs. 

Obviously both strategies have some element of risk.    With Option #2, there's more excitement and hope, and not mediocracy.  My problem with Option 1 (What the Bucs currently do) is you will never get anywhere.  Sure, youll save the owners $30 million as they increase ticket prices every year, but that benefits NO ONE except the ownership.  As a fan, this strategy is as futile as a one-legged dog trying to bury a turd on a frozen pond.

BuckEmUp

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#34 : January 09, 2009, 01:55:53 PM

His quote really is simple to digest.  We are not going to pay a FA more money then we are paying a guy on our roster that has better tallent.  This will only cause the player with better tallent to be pissed.  It really is that simple.  

Singing a FA to a long term big money contract means that he will be on your roster for at least a few years.  If he is cut to sign a better FA the following year or two years later you receive a cap hit.  Just because a guy is the best player at his position in FA does not mean that he should be paid like a starter.  You only pay a guy big money if he is worth big money not because he is all you can get.  

People talk about polishing a turd.  Well it is what it is and if you look at the situation realistically it should be common sense.  In the world we live in common sense is hard to come by though.


Feel Real Good

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#35 : January 09, 2009, 01:59:38 PM

And as far as the statement of not bring in a player making more than the player next to him? �Wow. �So I guess that rules out the top 25 free agents from landing in Tampa. �I like how he tries to cover his tracks with the Dre Moore pick. �You trade up to get him and say he is a red shirt player. �A 4th round pick, red shirt player. �Come on Bruce, only a blind follower on this board would believe that.
Have you looked at the players picked after Moore? Only Tashard Choice, who I was high on, did much of anything. Those are the breaks with 4th round players. They all have flaws. Some are physical, some are mental. Rather than settle on some player with very limited athletic upside, the Bucs gambled on someone with elite athletic talent and are hoping they can get his head in the game. I think it was worth it.

That is why the Dre Moore pick was worth it given the Bucs deviated somewhat with the safe pick mentality in the 2008 draft.
I thought pretty much the entire 2008 draft was about upside, not safety.

Talib - crazy athleticism but character concerns, stayed away from safer players like Cason at same position
Jackson - face it all the guy did was run fast at the Combine
Zuttah - not even a need, just had a good Combine
Moore - already covered him
Johnson - great athletic ability, crazy stats at lower level
Hayes - came out to early and dropped due to character concerns
Boyd - character concerns

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#36 : January 09, 2009, 02:00:45 PM

His quote really is simple to digest.  We are not going to pay a FA more money then we are paying a guy on our roster that has better tallent.  This will only cause the player with better tallent to be pissed.  It really is that simple. 

Does that mean the Bucs will not draft a player in the first round anymore?

This is why many are not digesting what he is saying though given that you have to pay up to bring in talent.  Or they have an inflated value of the existing players on the roster.  Outsiders view this team as vanilla, average overall.




alldaway

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#37 : January 09, 2009, 02:02:09 PM

And as far as the statement of not bring in a player making more than the player next to him? �Wow. �So I guess that rules out the top 25 free agents from landing in Tampa. �I like how he tries to cover his tracks with the Dre Moore pick. �You trade up to get him and say he is a red shirt player. �A 4th round pick, red shirt player. �Come on Bruce, only a blind follower on this board would believe that.
Have you looked at the players picked after Moore? Only Tashard Choice, who I was high on, did much of anything. Those are the breaks with 4th round players. They all have flaws. Some are physical, some are mental. Rather than settle on some player with very limited athletic upside, the Bucs gambled on someone with elite athletic talent and are hoping they can get his head in the game. I think it was worth it.

That is why the Dre Moore pick was worth it given the Bucs deviated somewhat with the safe pick mentality in the 2008 draft.
I thought pretty much the entire 2008 draft was about upside, not safety.

Talib - crazy athleticism but character concerns, stayed away from safer players like Cason at same position
Jackson - face it all the guy did was run fast at the Combine
Zuttah - not even a need, just had a good Combine
Moore - already covered him
Johnson - great athletic ability, crazy stats at lower level
Hayes - came out to early and dropped due to character concerns
Boyd - character concerns

Most scouts agreed that Jackson impressed as a WR at the senior bowl.  This is why I was surprised he wasn't used much as a WR in his rookie year.  But I have a gut feeling he will contribute far more as a WR in 2009 than Stovall.


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#38 : January 09, 2009, 02:03:36 PM

Curt, of course it's politics.  But it's also the case that > 50% of the board was screaming all offseason to sign everyone from DJ Hackett to Jerry Porter - well, it turns out those guys were a waste of money. The point is that those players were good value, and that we aren't going with the 2004 game plan.

Why is the one year deal indicative of dumb luck? He signed him to a "prove it" deal, and given his history that was smart. Now if he ends up elsewhere, I'll change my mind.

FloridaNative, I disagree - getting free agency wrong is really expensive and damaging. We ended up with the biggest game-changer who was out there outside of possibly Turner. Who were the others? And I disagree with creativity on contracts - that doesn't work with the elite players because there is always a team who is willing to be reckless with one of them (see for example, the Washington Redskins).

I don't disagree with you that you don't change the game with Dunn, Stevens and Wilkerson. Those guys are role players.

The problem with the Bucs - and it explains the cap room for the most part - is the draft. First, we had no high draft choices (and no, I'm not trying to bash McKay). That has huge implications for the cap. Most good teams expenses coming from extending their elite players, not fishing in free agency.  The guys we didn't draft in 2001, 2002, and 2003 would likely have been eating up big chunks of our cap, just as Sapp, Brooks, etc. did in previous years. The first guy in the Allen era to get to that point is Clayton, and that brings up the second part - once we got draft choices, we didn't make use of them like we needed to.

I'm not going to kill them for Caddy, as much of that is bad luck. But Clayton is a bust given his position, and we've wasted a ton of second day draft picks since Allen has arrived. The second day simply has to improve.

I think that the drafting has been better the last two drafts (absent the truly awful Dexter Jackson pick).  But time will tell on that.

Look, if you hate Allen, he said nothing that will change that. But to criticize his press conference as politics, polishing a turd...well that's what GMs do. Did you think he was going to say, "you know - you are right about Dexter Jackson. Scout X is the guy responsible, and today I'm going to can him."?


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#39 : January 09, 2009, 02:03:46 PM

AllDaWay, what I am saying is that FA has been average at best the past few seasons.  Why pay these guys the money they are getting when they are not worth it.  The players that are worth the money have been signed.  Just because there is a player on the market that could upgrade your #3 WR position should you pay him like a starter in the league?  That is what some teams have done recently and it has gotten them nowhere. The problem is that the Bucs finally have money when all the other teams have enough to keep their stars.  That will change and when it does the Bucs will have money because they did not blow starter money on backups.


sammy8887

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#40 : January 09, 2009, 02:03:52 PM

His quote really is simple to digest. We are not going to pay a FA more money then we are paying a guy on our roster that has better tallent. This will only cause the player with better tallent to be pissed. It really is that simple.

Does that mean the Bucs will not draft a player in the first round anymore?

This is why many are not digesting what he is saying though given that you have to pay up to bring in talent. Or they have an inflated value of the existing players on the roster. Outsiders view this team as plan old vanilla, average overall.


Both BA and BucEmUp are speaking of FA, not the draft...

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#41 : January 09, 2009, 02:06:57 PM

And as far as the statement of not bring in a player making more than the player next to him? ?Wow. ?So I guess that rules out the top 25 free agents from landing in Tampa. ?I like how he tries to cover his tracks with the Dre Moore pick. ?You trade up to get him and say he is a red shirt player. ?A 4th round pick, red shirt player. ?Come on Bruce, only a blind follower on this board would believe that.
Have you looked at the players picked after Moore? Only Tashard Choice, who I was high on, did much of anything. Those are the breaks with 4th round players. They all have flaws. Some are physical, some are mental. Rather than settle on some player with very limited athletic upside, the Bucs gambled on someone with elite athletic talent and are hoping they can get his head in the game. I think it was worth it.

Moore is still at the point in which he could still be a productive player. Didn't Jay Ratliff spend a couple of season's on the PS before getting some time in Dallas?
I don't know his whole story, but he didn't play much, only notching 4 tackles. Defensive tackle is an extremely physically demanding position and few but the most polished high picks make impacts as rookies. There are many who didn't play for a year or two before putting it together. There's still hope.

wasn't Tanard Jackson a 4th round pick just a year prior?

You must be accountable for your actions!

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#42 : January 09, 2009, 02:07:30 PM

AllDaWay, what I am saying is that FA has been average at best the past few seasons.  Why pay these guys the money they are getting when they are not worth it.  The players that are worth the money have been signed.  Just because there is a player on the market that could upgrade your #3 WR position should you pay him like a starter in the league?  That is what some teams have done recently and it has gotten them nowhere. The problem is that the Bucs finally have money when all the other teams have enough to keep their stars.  That will change and when it does the Bucs will have money because they did not blow starter money on backups.

The quality of free agents will not improve unless something drastic takes place.   You have to pay up to bring in talent from the outside, or else you are relying on the draft to generate the impact players this team desperately needs to stand out.    I do not forsee changes where the Bucs cap space will be a big advantage given only a handfull of teams are in the red when it comes to the projected salary cap for 2009.


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#43 : January 09, 2009, 02:09:22 PM

His quote really is simple to digest. We are not going to pay a FA more money then we are paying a guy on our roster that has better tallent. This will only cause the player with better tallent to be pissed. It really is that simple.

Does that mean the Bucs will not draft a player in the first round anymore?

This is why many are not digesting what he is saying though given that you have to pay up to bring in talent. Or they have an inflated value of the existing players on the roster. Outsiders view this team as plan old vanilla, average overall.


Both BA and BucEmUp are speaking of FA, not the draft...

I am not buying Bruce Allen's sell though.

If his argument is to not pay up accordingly for free agents for the fear it causes disruption for the other players on the team because of salary then why doesn't this happen when the Bucs draft players in the first round and pay them more money than our proven players?

That is why Bruce's theory falls apart IMVHO.

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#44 : January 09, 2009, 02:11:54 PM

Risk Option #1  -  Sign 10 "bargin players" and hope 1 turns into something special... but the realty is, these types of players were cut from other NFL teams for a reason.  Sure, maybe 2 or 3 of these bargin players become slightly better than average, and one or two of them might be pro bowl alternates..  big deal.  but the team isnt winning squat because those alternate pro-bowlers are surrounded by marginal players.   maybe you end up with a 9-7 record and maybe a Division crown, but get creamed in the playoffs because other teams just have better players than you do....  especially on offense.  

Risk Option #2 -  Sign 5  "expensive players" but face a risk that 1 or more of them may end up being worthless.    Sure, you run the risk of wasting money, and maybe you get burned a little on cap room, but cap problems aren't that hard to fix..  you can always go "bargin shopping" next season, which the Bucs are good at.  There's plenty of CFL and Arena league players we can sign the following year..  but at least youre trying.  However, sign 5 stud players, and there is plenty of UPSIDE as well, your team might actually dominate your opponents and go far in the playoffs.  

Obviously both strategies have some element of risk.    With Option #2, there's more excitement and hope, and not mediocracy.  My problem with Option 1 (What the Bucs currently do) is you will never get anywhere.  Sure, youll save the owners $30 million as they increase ticket prices every year, but that benefits NO ONE except the ownership.  As a fan, this strategy is as futile as a one-legged dog trying to bury a turd on a frozen pond.


FloridaNative, I take your point, but name a single team that has had success with option #2? The only teams I can think of off the top of my head to have even tried that are the Skins and the 49ers a couple of seasons ago. I can't even think of 5 "stud" free agents from last year. The big names last year were Berrian, Asante Samuel, Turner, Briggs....any I'm missing?

As the Skins have shown, you end up with a team with no depth going that route.
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