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bradentonian

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#30 : January 13, 2009, 01:03:45 PM

With Bruce Allen running things it's hard to fathom that there is no plan. He seems as methodical a person as one can come across. It might not be a good plan, a plan that hasn't worked out or maybe he's TOO methodical but I cannot believe there isn't a plan.

Agree 100%.  As you point out, either the plan isn't working or the plan is based around other objectives besides building a long-term elite team.


Feel Real Good

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#31 : January 13, 2009, 01:10:26 PM

Kind of thought we over-reacted there in 2004.  We won the Super bowl in 2002, have a weird 2003 season, still winning 7 games, and losing close ones, then in 2004, we decide we need to start over and get rid of key players.  I just don’t understand it.
The Bucs tried to re-load in 2004. They didn't try to get younger until 2005. Hindsight being 20/20, they should have blown things up after the 2003 season.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

rowdie

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#32 : January 13, 2009, 02:17:10 PM

Kind of thought we over-reacted there in 2004.  We won the Super bowl in 2002, have a weird 2003 season, still winning 7 games, and losing close ones, then in 2004, we decide we need to start over and get rid of key players.  I just don�t understand it.
The Bucs tried to re-load in 2004. They didn't try to get younger until 2005. Hindsight being 20/20, they should have blown things up after the 2003 season.

That's how I remember it.


DYK, we have a college football forum... http://www.pewterreport.com/forum/index.php?board=5.0

cheveliar

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#33 : January 13, 2009, 06:10:48 PM

Come on guys re-read my initial post.  I didn't ask you to speculate on whether there is a plan or not.  I didn't ask you to bash the suppoesed planners.  I asked, Do you think because we as fans don't know the plan that it has lead to the hostility that still prevaricates this board like a rash...

Without Carl Nix it feels like our running game just took a death blow to the face!


CurtR1995

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#34 : January 13, 2009, 06:16:21 PM

With Bruce Allen running things it's hard to fathom that there is no plan. He seems as methodical a person as one can come across. It might not be a good plan, a plan that hasn't worked out or maybe he's TOO methodical but I cannot believe there isn't a plan.

I am sure there is a plan.  Matt Millen had a plan too.  

All kiddin aside, what do you think Allen's plan is?

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#35 : January 13, 2009, 06:20:07 PM

Yes Chev - it is the not knowing that is the issue.  And it is killing me wondering what can be done at QB and UT to get my favorite team back on track

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

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#36 : January 13, 2009, 07:02:27 PM

Come on guys re-read my initial post.  I didn't ask you to speculate on whether there is a plan or not.  I didn't ask you to bash the suppoesed planners.  I asked, Do you think because we as fans don't know the plan that it has lead to the hostility that still prevaricates this board like a rash...

Yeah to a certain extent.  More than not knowing the plan though I think it's that we are watching the same plan unfold year after year which obviously isn't very effective.   They seem to address certain points of concerns and neglect others i.e. the QB situation. 

I really don't get the Man. Utd. agrument.  It makes no sense to me.  They are two different franchises.   It would be one thing if people said because of the economy they are cutting spending for both but they aren't.  Just from the little public knowledge there is about the Glazers they care about winning so I don't see them hindering Bruce to make moves.  I think it's more him being gun shy.  He doesn't want to overspend on FA busts like before.   We've gotten a rep for being a low ball team though.  I hope he opens it up a little this year but doesn't go nuts.  We'll need to carry over some for the next offseason to sign more of our players. 


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#37 : January 13, 2009, 07:03:22 PM

Come on guys re-read my initial post.  I didn't ask you to speculate on whether there is a plan or not.  I didn't ask you to bash the suppoesed planners.  I asked, Do you think because we as fans don't know the plan that it has lead to the hostility that still prevaricates this board like a rash...

I think you are asking the wrong question, then. Your original post did well to spur on debate as far as I'm concerned, but if that was really ALL you wanted discussed you did a poor job framing that.

The fundamental questions are whether or not there is a plan, and, if there is, is that plan acceptable? Is the plan working? Is it a good plan? Have we executed?

I realize you probably think this is rehashed over and over again on this board. In reality, though, the substance is lacking. There are plenty of people who will say that there is no plan or that the plan sucks in unsatisfactory one liner fashion. It just isn't satisfying to read how bad Gruden sucks over and over again. It's much more satisfying to hear a good argument and logic as to why he sucks. The same for if he is doing a good job, by a particular poster's estimation.

And now to answer your question. Is it the lack of a shared plan that spurs the hatred? If they did divulge a plan to us, would they be giving away secrets?

First of all, lack of performance has spurred the hatred. There are numerous reasons, but ultimately if we were still in the playoffs (on championship weekend) or, especially, if we were hoisting the Lombardi trophy this year I think the hatred would subside. We had a terrible collapse this season and really that was just icing on the cake. We have been booted out of the playoffs in the first round every time we've made it since our Super Bowl run. That's not getting the job done. We've had 6 years under our current coach and yet we still squeak into the playoffs and get booted out, or, worse, never make it.

In some ways, the lack of the plan contributes to the hatred, but is clearly secondary. When you don't perform then a lack of a plan, or a bad plan will add insult to injury. I think that's what is happening here. The plan hasn't been good since Allen came here. If he had a better plan, or had executed better on the plan we would be in a different position. Allen not divulging a plan at this point as to how to get our franchise back on track feels like a knife in the ribs. We're at a period where business as usual under this GM and coach sucks. Failure to show something different means more of the same. Why should anyone hope they'll fix the team this offseason when they've been complacent in FA and squandered draft picks in the past?

It's insult to injury, Chev. Maybe Allen and Gruden could please the masses at this point by changing direction. You think that's going to happen with Muir being retained? You think that's going to happen in FA this year? You think we'll draft superstars this April in the NFL draft? I don't. Allen won't even offer a plan to help us decipher what direction the franchise is heading. Most of us feel it's heading down the toilet and that's what their plan has shown us so far.

Secondly, I don't expect anything earth shattering from the press conferences. I do expect some general direction. Apparently Bruce is too "almighty" to offer that. When he gets fired he'll realize that he's only playing poker with himself. He could offer a real state of the franchise and direction of the franchise without divulging secrets. He doesn't know who he's going to draft yet, etc. There's no need for super secrecy. Our nation's security isn't at stake. He could show us where we're headed without tipping his hand but yet he chooses not to.

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#38 : January 13, 2009, 07:03:47 PM

Come on guys re-read my initial post. I didn't ask you to speculate on whether there is a plan or not. I didn't ask you to bash the suppoesed planners. I asked, Do you think because we as fans don't know the plan that it has lead to the hostility that still prevaricates this board like a rash...

It's a combination of the results and the manner in which they are achieved, which leaves little hope for the future




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#39 : January 13, 2009, 07:10:00 PM

The fact that this thread exists after 5 years of "planning" suggest that the plan is so secret even Allen and Gruden do not even know what it is.

Thats a pretty interesting thought.

I've had extensive one on one conversations with a few on this board and have made it known that the major source of my frustration with the team as it currently sits is that 7yrs into the current regime, we have no idea who our startin qb will be next year.

Its really incredible when you think about it.

cheveliar

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#40 : January 13, 2009, 07:18:46 PM

Come on guys re-read my initial post.  I didn't ask you to speculate on whether there is a plan or not.  I didn't ask you to bash the suppoesed planners.  I asked, Do you think because we as fans don't know the plan that it has lead to the hostility that still prevaricates this board like a rash...

I think you are asking the wrong question, then. Your original post did well to spur on debate as far as I'm concerned, but if that was really ALL you wanted discussed you did a poor job framing that.

The fundamental questions are whether or not there is a plan, and, if there is, is that plan acceptable? Is the plan working? Is it a good plan? Have we executed?

I realize you probably think this is rehashed over and over again on this board. In reality, though, the substance is lacking. There are plenty of people who will say that there is no plan or that the plan sucks in unsatisfactory one liner fashion. It just isn't satisfying to read how bad Gruden sucks over and over again. It's much more satisfying to hear a good argument and logic as to why he sucks. The same for if he is doing a good job, by a particular poster's estimation.

And now to answer your question. Is it the lack of a shared plan that spurs the hatred? If they did divulge a plan to us, would they be giving away secrets?

First of all, lack of performance has spurred the hatred. There are numerous reasons, but ultimately if we were still in the playoffs (on championship weekend) or, especially, if we were hoisting the Lombardi trophy this year I think the hatred would subside. We had a terrible collapse this season and really that was just icing on the cake. We have been booted out of the playoffs in the first round every time we've made it since our Super Bowl run. That's not getting the job done. We've had 6 years under our current coach and yet we still squeak into the playoffs and get booted out, or, worse, never make it.

In some ways, the lack of the plan contributes to the hatred, but is clearly secondary. When you don't perform then a lack of a plan, or a bad plan will add insult to injury. I think that's what is happening here. The plan hasn't been good since Allen came here. If he had a better plan, or had executed better on the plan we would be in a different position. Allen not divulging a plan at this point as to how to get our franchise back on track feels like a knife in the ribs. We're at a period where business as usual under this GM and coach sucks. Failure to show something different means more of the same. Why should anyone hope they'll fix the team this offseason when they've been complacent in FA and squandered draft picks in the past?

It's insult to injury, Chev. Maybe Allen and Gruden could please the masses at this point by changing direction. You think that's going to happen with Muir being retained? You think that's going to happen in FA this year? You think we'll draft superstars this April in the NFL draft? I don't. Allen won't even offer a plan to help us decipher what direction the franchise is heading. Most of us feel it's heading down the toilet and that's what their plan has shown us so far.

Secondly, I don't expect anything earth shattering from the press conferences. I do expect some general direction. Apparently Bruce is too "almighty" to offer that. When he gets fired he'll realize that he's only playing poker with himself. He could offer a real state of the franchise and direction of the franchise without divulging secrets. He doesn't know who he's going to draft yet, etc. There's no need for super secrecy. Our nation's security isn't at stake. He could show us where we're headed without tipping his hand but yet he chooses not to.

I totally disagree, but I guess I would since I wrote it. LOL...But the one thing I will agree with is I am personally rather tired of the Gruden sucks.  Ok, a lot of things in life suck.  Do we know why they suck?  Can we fix the suckage?  Not that I care one way or another at this point, but no one deserves to be talked about and berated like he has.  But I remember this same town dissing Tony the same way.  I personally think most want change for the sake of change, others don't know any better and are echoing the sentiment of the masses.  Thoe masses made up of the same people who rode Tony out of town.  I think instead of a once respectful group of fans who were hungry for a winning season, we've become some high and mighty know it alls because we've won a SB and now feel we are entitled to do so year in and year out. I also think it is the "johnny come lately" Buccaneer fan leading that charge...  

Without Carl Nix it feels like our running game just took a death blow to the face!


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#41 : January 13, 2009, 07:24:08 PM

It's not that it wasn't a good thread. It's just a rather long post on your part if all you wanted people to address was that one issue.

Nobody should "hate" Gruden. Maybe hate him as a football coach. As far as the individual, I don't know him so I can't speak on that.

Maybe the fans just want a winner and sense it isn't happening with this coach. It's no reason for personal attacks but it is reason for concern and constructive complaint.

Feel Real Good

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#42 : January 13, 2009, 09:39:23 PM

Come on guys re-read my initial post. I didn't ask you to speculate on whether there is a plan or not. I didn't ask you to bash the suppoesed planners. I asked, Do you think because we as fans don't know the plan that it has lead to the hostility that still prevaricates this board like a rash...
I don't know about everyone else on here, but I don't EXPECT the upper management of an NFL team to tell me anything. I'm fine with that. I've been following the NFL for 10 or so years, which isn't as long as some, but I pay attention to what all the teams are doing. In addition to the Tampa Bay area, I've lived in two other NFL markets so I'd like to think I look at the Bucs more impartial than others. And having seen numerous coaches and executives take over new teams, I really disagree with the direction of the Bucs. When I look at how other coaches and GM's have built championship level teams, I don't see a lot on common with what the Bucs have been doing.

There's been only six other championship teams built since we won one in 32. Of course we're not giving JG a pass,God forbid, but there can be but one after every season and some have been in this league longer and still don't have one...
Championship level. Not championship winning. Not all teams that don't win the Super Bowl are equal.

Huh?  Dude, if you make it to the game on February 1st and lose you are no better than the Lions as you share their fate of being one of 31 teams that didn't get a ring.  Only difference is they pick higher than you...
I disagree. Championships are often won or lost due to a certain bounce here or there or a favorable match up. Stuff a coach can affect. Do the Giants beat every NFC team other than the Eagles? Probably. Do the Titans beat the Ravens if Chris Johnson doesn't go out? Probably. You can't let those kind of things define an entire organization. This thread is about long term team building, not coaching. You can look at teams that don't win the Super Bowl and tell if they're on the right track or not.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

cheveliar

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#43 : January 13, 2009, 07:29:56 PM

It's not that it wasn't a good thread. It's just a rather long post on your part if all you wanted people to address was that one issue.

Nobody should "hate" Gruden. Maybe hate him as a football coach. As far as the individual, I don't know him so I can't speak on that.

Maybe the fans just want a winner and sense it isn't happening with this coach. It's no reason for personal attacks but it is reason for concern and constructive complaint.

How much of that have you seen on here this season?  It was an attempt to possibly get a little self reflection, but you're right I failed at that.  What was I thinking?  People are too busy blaming to look within themselves...Even I was upset, but I stopped and asked myself why?  I didn't come up with some evil unhealthy thoughts about the coach, GM, or owners.  I came up with the fact that we don't have a "valid" way to measure a plan we don't know. 

Without Carl Nix it feels like our running game just took a death blow to the face!


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#44 : January 13, 2009, 07:35:41 PM

I've seen a decent amount. There are always going to be complainer/whiner babies. You just have to find the mental ignore button on a forum that doesn't provide you with one.
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