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STULAAKE

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#75 : January 14, 2009, 09:09:15 AM

Chev - There is more wrong with this team then just a defense getting after the opposing teams quarterback and a quarterback to run the vaunted offensive scheme here.

you probably know better, but i still beg to differ

as do I

You must be accountable for your actions!

alldaway

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#76 : January 14, 2009, 09:14:49 AM

Here are my two cents.

Here is the plan:

McKay used a roster model which retained the star players, and paid them above and beyond other players.  Of course this resulted in turnover of the roster while the core remained (Lynch, Sapp, Brooks, Keyshawn). Bruce wants to emulate the Patriots roster model which focuses on building a solid 53 man roster.  The weakness of McKay roster model was that there was no depth behind the stars it featured.  Bruce's strategy thus far in building up the depth has worked to an extent, but no matter how much depth you can generate if you do not have a quality starter at QB, UT and LT it all means nothing. The draft is obviously a source for young, cheap players, and it is important to all teams trying to manage their cap.  The Saints for example may look in bad shape, but then again if their draft class pulls through they are in better cap shape in the future and more competitive.  I believe the Saints have had some good drafts the last few years.  Same can be said of Atlanta and Carolina because it is not just free agency which has propelled these teams to competitiveness alone.  With that said even though they are better drafting teams they still use free agency as a compliment.  The Bucs approach uses free agency as simply filling gaps which I disagree with.

The one big flaw with Bruce's 53 man roster strategy in trying to emulate the Patriots is that they use both approaches which is balanced.  On one hand they do put an emphasis on building a solid 53 man roster.  But on the other hand they have gone out, and aggressively obtained quality free agent stars through the open market or trades (and they have retained some of their stars).

When was the last time this team obtained a Randy Moss caliber player?  When was the last time this team landed a Corey Dillon?  How about an Adalius Thomas type?  R. Colvin? I hope Bryant stays, but it seems likely that may not be the case.

Lets be real here because this team will be perpetually an 8-9 win team if they refuse to make any splash pickups in the off season or bold moves in the draft.

If this team is so reliant on the draft then they need to consider in trading down multiple times unless they feel they can land an impact player.

The status quo simply is not working.




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#77 : January 14, 2009, 09:43:51 AM

Should we be privy to the plan ? No.   Certainly not to any great detail.  That's just bad sports management.

Has this created the hate and discontent?  It certainly is a part of it IMO (I personally am not feeling either, more disappointed than anything.)

7 years is a long time now-a-days.  The Bucs chose to 'retool' rather than 'rebuild' after the SB with some success, but nothing that would
be considered in my mind as 'successful'.   Surprisingly (at least to me,) we've stayed marginally competitive (primarily because our defense did not need 'rebuilt' and carried the team for a few years)  and it's been an interesting and emotional ride.   I certainly understand why they made that choice/commitment then...

I think a lot of the '**CENSORED**ry' (great thread title) and malcontent now is based on the summary of marginal success (drafts, FA's, Injuries, etc.) over this seven year period and this season's outcome is salt in that wound.

We still have no longterm answer for the QB position and our defense appears to have lost its core.   That's a scary thing to a fan who breathes BucBall.

I also think our 'newer' group of fans are not used to being patient (JMHO) and it contributes to the fan's current displeasure.

(I have said it for a couple years now - we need that QB, we need elite talent and with the economy such as it is currently, the Bucs need 'star power'.  In part to be successful - but now in another sense to placate the fans.  This regime will not finish out the extensions if they don't take significant steps this off season.  Listening  to BA in his presser - there were indications he knows it and I sincerely hope that they go for it.)

BA has got to adjust his risk strategy - it's way too low in this situation now.


Feel Real Good

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#78 : January 14, 2009, 11:02:41 AM

Here's a take from Mike Lombardi on the Scott Pioli hiring that kind of relates to this thread:

Quote from: Michael Lombardi
There is no doubt that Scott will be prepared for the job that awaits him in Kansas City.  But the key to his success is his first move - the person he picks for his head coach.  This is not just a random pick or a look at the pool of people who are available and then make a choice.  He must find someone who knows and understands the "Program" that was installed and developed in Cleveland and ultimately mastered in New England.  Scott is one of the best personnel men in the NFL, but unless he finds someone who understands player development, the foundation of building a team and the implementation of the comprehensive program, then he will struggle to win games.  The good part for everyone in Kansas City is that Scott knows this, and he knows how important it is that the coach he picks is his friend and understands the philosophy behind the "Program."    His father-in-law, Bill Parcells, knew he needed someone he trained in the program to be his head coach, and there wasn't much doubt whom he would pick.  And now Pioli is faced with the same problem. I'm confident that he knows the person he'll pick; if he wasn't, he wouldn't have left Belichick.

Some of the coaches who have left Belichick have not done as well as predicted, but what happens is that many of them don't understand how to work the program and how important it is to have a keen eye for talent with regard to the program.  Everyone asks me, "What is the 'Program'?"  It starts with defining what you want to become as a football team and then it has ways to develop that talent in both players and coaches.  Where other Belichick coaches fail - and where Pioli must make the right hire - is that they are unable to evaluate and project talent and do not know how to develop it for their specific team.  Pioli may bring in a very bright young player, but if the new coach he picks doesn't recognize the talent, or relies on an assistant coach to make the evaluation, the whole program goes to hell.  The talent is brought in, then the head coach evaluates it as it relates to the NFL, and the assistant coaches develop it, without the final say on the evaluation.  The assistants' job is to teach and develop, not evaluate.  Everyone has a job, and no one is bigger than his job.

Pioli understands what he needs to be successful, and he knows he must find the right coach to help him install his master plan.  He must have a great relationship with the new coach, and the coach must understand how all the pieces fit and work together.  My hunch is that Kirk Frentz of Iowa would be the right fit for the Chiefs and help Pioli install his "Program." 

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/2009/01/national-football-post-diner-news-88/

Do the Bucs have a "Program"?

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.



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#79 : January 14, 2009, 11:09:59 AM

Nice find...

If a plan or program is defined as Lombardi puts it - we can all make a better educated guess... (no need for specifics)

Who do we want to be as a football team?

How do we develop talent in players?

How do we develop talent in coaches?

How do we project player talent?

How do we evaluate talent?

Who's responsible for evaluating talent?

How successful (thus far) has this regime been in the above areas?

Pretty logical stuff ...how do YOU (posters) answer these above questions?

alldaway

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#80 : January 17, 2009, 02:22:23 PM

I've been trying to figure out where all of the true anger is coming from.  I mean it's easy to throw coach under the bus and so many of you have jumped on that bandwagon, I'm amazed you're still around knowing he's still employeed. 

But I digress...

Could this be a transparency problem?  None of us really know what the plan is for the franchise.  Bruce doesn't readily avail those types of answers to the press.  I'm sure some of you famous conspiracy theorists will say it's because they have no plan, but then you're calling your beloved owners dummies for continuing to employ a couple of guys just to run amuck.  Can't believe that and believe the Glazers are as smart as we all think they are.  So there has to be a plan in place.  We as fans just don't know it, don't know how it's being executed, or how it's being, graded for progress. 

Further, should we as fans be privvy to that info?  Do we have the right to know how they plan to upgrade the team? While I'm sure most of us would love to be in the know, wouldn't that in some ways compromise team strategy? Give away secrets other teams could use against us?

Just a thought.  I mean the anger should be over by now, especially seeing how our vaunted NFC South got booted from the playoffs in spank spank style by both of our representatives.  Just about what most predicted us to do anyway.  To me this hateration seems to have taken over many on here and it's just out of control and seems like no one can settle on one thing or the other.  Because it's more than one thing, ever thought of that? JG has a ton of culpability, but he doesn't bear the brunt all by himself, realisticlly. Heck as good as he was at Dayton, I'm sure he could have done far worst in the red zone than Jeff, right?   ;)

My whole point here is that it may very well be that none of us know and we're being left to our own imaginations which I have to say seems to have more than run away, they've sprinted off at world class speed...

I think this topic should be re-visited in the light  of current events.

Glazers were not happy with Jon's and Bruce's plans.


cheveliar

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#81 : January 17, 2009, 02:33:33 PM

I've been trying to figure out where all of the true anger is coming from. I mean it's easy to throw coach under the bus and so many of you have jumped on that bandwagon, I'm amazed you're still around knowing he's still employeed.

But I digress...

Could this be a transparency problem? None of us really know what the plan is for the franchise. Bruce doesn't readily avail those types of answers to the press. I'm sure some of you famous conspiracy theorists will say it's because they have no plan, but then you're calling your beloved owners dummies for continuing to employ a couple of guys just to run amuck. Can't believe that and believe the Glazers are as smart as we all think they are. So there has to be a plan in place. We as fans just don't know it, don't know how it's being executed, or how it's being, graded for progress.

Further, should we as fans be privvy to that info? Do we have the right to know how they plan to upgrade the team? While I'm sure most of us would love to be in the know, wouldn't that in some ways compromise team strategy? Give away secrets other teams could use against us?

Just a thought. I mean the anger should be over by now, especially seeing how our vaunted NFC South got booted from the playoffs in spank spank style by both of our representatives. Just about what most predicted us to do anyway. To me this hateration seems to have taken over many on here and it's just out of control and seems like no one can settle on one thing or the other. Because it's more than one thing, ever thought of that? JG has a ton of culpability, but he doesn't bear the brunt all by himself, realisticlly. Heck as good as he was at Dayton, I'm sure he could have done far worst in the red zone than Jeff, right? ;)

My whole point here is that it may very well be that none of us know and we're being left to our own imaginations which I have to say seems to have more than run away, they've sprinted off at world class speed...

I think this topic should be re-visited in the light of current events.

Glazers were not happy with Jon's and Bruce's plans.



How do you know it was Jon and Bruce's plan?

Do you like the Glazers plan?

Is it anymore transparent?

Do you think the new regime will be anymore forthcoming?

Without Carl Nix it feels like our running game just took a death blow to the face!


InChuckyITrust

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#82 : January 17, 2009, 02:35:00 PM

Im sorry, I was all for firing Jon as much as anyone on here... but not to hire Raheem and Domenik.

"there are no medals here for who can stay at the office the longest," said Jagodzinski. "I'm not into that. The guys that brag about working till 2 in the morning, in my opinion, they're just not smart enough. "

18,2,25,13 ... murderers row?

I support coach Calhoun and his salary

alldaway

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#83 : January 17, 2009, 02:35:22 PM

I've been trying to figure out where all of the true anger is coming from. I mean it's easy to throw coach under the bus and so many of you have jumped on that bandwagon, I'm amazed you're still around knowing he's still employeed.

But I digress...

Could this be a transparency problem? None of us really know what the plan is for the franchise. Bruce doesn't readily avail those types of answers to the press. I'm sure some of you famous conspiracy theorists will say it's because they have no plan, but then you're calling your beloved owners dummies for continuing to employ a couple of guys just to run amuck. Can't believe that and believe the Glazers are as smart as we all think they are. So there has to be a plan in place. We as fans just don't know it, don't know how it's being executed, or how it's being, graded for progress.

Further, should we as fans be privvy to that info? Do we have the right to know how they plan to upgrade the team? While I'm sure most of us would love to be in the know, wouldn't that in some ways compromise team strategy? Give away secrets other teams could use against us?

Just a thought. I mean the anger should be over by now, especially seeing how our vaunted NFC South got booted from the playoffs in spank spank style by both of our representatives. Just about what most predicted us to do anyway. To me this hateration seems to have taken over many on here and it's just out of control and seems like no one can settle on one thing or the other. Because it's more than one thing, ever thought of that? JG has a ton of culpability, but he doesn't bear the brunt all by himself, realisticlly. Heck as good as he was at Dayton, I'm sure he could have done far worst in the red zone than Jeff, right? ;)

My whole point here is that it may very well be that none of us know and we're being left to our own imaginations which I have to say seems to have more than run away, they've sprinted off at world class speed...

I think this topic should be re-visited in the light of current events.

Glazers were not happy with Jon's and Bruce's plans.



How do you know it was Jon and Bruce's plan?

Do you like the Glazers plan?

Is it anymore transparent?

Do you think the new regime will be anymore forthcoming?

1.  They were fired, and Bruce left his blackberry at work... :o

2. So far I do given the new direction that is taking place.

3. & 4.  I guess we will find out with the press conference in one hour.


cheveliar

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#84 : January 17, 2009, 02:41:54 PM

Ok so you believe because of the plan Jon and Bruce had developed the Glazers didn't like it so they canned them?

Given the new direction, they fired the guys! While I like Raheem, and think it was a good move to keep him, how do you know his direction is better than the one we just had.  Change for the sake of change?

Now we'll see, before you all demanded and speculated to death what you didn't know before but now that Gruden is gone, no jumping up and down...we'll see?

Without Carl Nix it feels like our running game just took a death blow to the face!


InChuckyITrust

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#85 : January 17, 2009, 02:44:18 PM

Ok so you believe because of the plan Jon and Bruce had developed the Glazers didn't like it so they canned them?

Given the new direction, they fired the guys! While I like Raheem, and think it was a good move to keep him, how do you know his direction is better than the one we just had. Change for the sake of change?

Now we'll see, before you all demanded and speculated to death what you didn't know before but now that Gruden is gone, no jumping up and down...we'll see?

Agree Chev, I really do not understand this move.  Not even one bit.

Who is going to run our offense?

"there are no medals here for who can stay at the office the longest," said Jagodzinski. "I'm not into that. The guys that brag about working till 2 in the morning, in my opinion, they're just not smart enough. "

18,2,25,13 ... murderers row?

I support coach Calhoun and his salary
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