300 - The movie

[dalbuc]

this isnt a documentary, so historical accuracy wont make this movie for me. It is frank miller's 300. It will be a kickass movie just like Sin CIty was. When MArve (Sin City) falls off buildings and doesnt die, it didnt make me disllike the movie. when wyle e coyote didnt die in the roadrunner cartoons did it make you mad as a kid because it was so unrealistic?

No, because those are obviously not real settings. If the Rangers in Blackhawk Down has jumped like Crouching Tiger/Hidden Dragon extras that would have sucked rocks in Blackhawk Down no matter how very cool it looks in Crouching Tiger.

[spartan]

You are referring to the Greek tradition of pederasty. However, it is widely reported that the Spartan version was chaste, i.e. no physical relationships unlike a lot of other Greek City States.

No, I'm not. It's going to be interesting to see how far you're willing to twist the well documented in order to defend the chastity of your moniker.

If you're not talking about pederasty then I'm not sure what you're talking about. Just in case we are talking the same thing but in different terminology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartan_pederasty

The Spartans believed that the love of an older, accomplished aristocrat for an adolescent boy was essential to his formation as a free citizen. The education of the ruling class was thus founded on pederastic relationships, required of each citizen.[5] The ephors fined any eligible man who did not love a boy, because, despite his own excellence, he failed to make a beloved “similar to himself.�[6] Likewise, for a boy it was a disgrace to not find a lover,[7]. By the time they reached the age of twelve "there was not any of the more hopeful boys who did not have a lover to bear him company."[8]

In Sparta, like in most other Greek city-states, the man first had to win the affection of the boy he sought, and it was the boy’s right to choose his lover. But in Sparta, his freedom was not complete. If two men, both reputable but one rich and the other poor, courted him, and he settled on the wealthier of the two, he was fined by the ephors for his greed.[9] As for the men, if two different men both loved one boy, instead of becoming rivals they forged a friendship between themselves, and "worked together to make the boy the best he could be."[10] Another characteristic that set Spartan boys apart from other Greek youths - typically overbearing and arrogant in such circumstances - was their modesty towards their lovers. The boys themselves were the ones to request to be mentored.[11]

Though Plato in his Laws implies otherwise, blaming the Spartans for their custom of males taking sexual pleasure with other males παρὰ φύσιν "beyond nature"[12], many ancient writers held that Spartan pederasty was chaste, though still erotic. Lycurgus decreed that if someone, being himself an honest man, admired a boy's soul and tried to make of him an ideal friend without reproach and to associate with him, he approved, and believed in the excellence of this kind of training. But if it was clear that the attraction lay in the boy's outward beauty, he banned the connection as an abomination; and thus he mandated that "boy lovers should keep their hands off boys just as parents do not lay hands on their own children." This system, implies Xenophon, produces the most modest, trustworthy and self-controlled men in all of Greece. [13]

Plutarch also describes the relationships as chaste, and states that it was as unthinkable for a lover to sexually consummate a relationship with his beloved as for a father to do so with his own son. In the same vein, Cicero asserted that, "The Lacedaemonians, while they permit all things except outrage (stuprum, = Greek hubris, referring here to anal intercourse)[14] in the love of youths, certainly distinguish the forbidden by a thin wall of partition from the sanctioned, for they allow embraces and a common couch to lovers.' [15] Aelian goes even farther, stating that if any couple succumbed to temptation and indulged in carnal relations, they would have to redeem the affront to the honor of Sparta by either going into exile or taking their own lives.[16]

The construction of Spartan pederasty as exclusively chaste conflicts with epigraphic writings found on the island of Thera in 1898, an island colonized by the Spartans. These are graffiti, preserved on the rocks of a cliff in the vicinity of what became a gymnasium. They record sexual conquests, always of one male over another[17]. E.g.: IG 12(3).538b Ἀμο[τ]ίωνα ὦιπ<h>ε Κρίμων [τ]ε(ῖ)δ[ε] "Krimon ****** Amotion here" (the verb οἴφω is exclusively physical). Thera, however, was also influenced by Crete, a culture which did not privilege non-sexual relationships.[18] The alleged sexual indulgence of Spartan pederasty was a running gag in the repertoire of Athenian comedians, and the verb λακωνίζω / lakōnízō ("to do it the Lacedaemonian way"; literally, "to laconize") took on the meaning of "to sodomize." It is not clear to what extent this is a reflection of the enmity between Athens and Sparta.


Me now: In short we don't really know the nature of the relationships but there is sufficient 'official' evidence t suggest that the Spartans were the least 'indulgent' (to coin a phrase) of most the Greeks.

[spartan]

this isnt a documentary, so historical accuracy wont make this movie for me. It is frank miller's 300. It will be a kickass movie just like Sin CIty was. When MArve (Sin City) falls off buildings and doesnt die, it didnt make me disllike the movie. when wyle e coyote didnt die in the roadrunner cartoons did it make you mad as a kid because it was so unrealistic?

No, because those are obviously not real settings. If the Rangers in Blackhawk Down has jumped like Crouching Tiger/Hidden Dragon extras that would have sucked rocks in Blackhawk Down no matter how very cool it looks in Crouching Tiger.

To some extent I agree with Dalbuc here, particularly with his reference to Blackhawk down. There are differences though. The most obvious is that we know exactly what went down in Mogadishu and Ranger tactics and so on are known. When you go back as far as the Spartans though not only do we have very little in documented military tactics and drills, the battle itself isn't that well documented. The main highlights are but that is about it. Therefore I think it is OK to permit a bit of artistic license. We obviously don't know how far they will take that as the movie has not been released yet, but if they start doing cartwheels, backflips and other such nonsense then it will truly spoil the movie, but the odd athletic leap will not by itself spoil it for me, regardless of how unlikely it would have occurred in reality.

No, because those are obviously not real settings. If the Rangers in Blackhawk Down has jumped like Crouching Tiger/Hidden Dragon extras that would have sucked rocks in Blackhawk Down no matter how very cool it looks in Crouching Tiger.

Well I think this will be somewhere in between Blackhawk Down and Crouching Tiger, as far as how realistic the setting is going to try and be portrayed.

It is goiong to be a little like Sin City, so if the clothes arent authentic and hand woven in the same patterns as they really were Im not going to walk out of the movie

[dalbuc]

To some extent I agree with Dalbuc here, particularly with his reference to Blackhawk down. There are differences though. The most obvious is that we know exactly what went down in Mogadishu and Ranger tactics and so on are known. When you go back as far as the Spartans though not only do we have very little in documented military tactics and drills, the battle itself isn't that well documented.

The battles of the Greeks are actually fairly well documented both from Greek sources and from Roman and other sources who encountered Greek tactics. Taken further we are reasonably familiar with the approach since it was revived in the late middle ages and used well into the 17th century with the rebirth of pikemen.

It would actually be a fascinating thing to see put on screen because I've never been 100% sure how you get that front rank to walk into the phalanx of the other side and actually get to (ananchronisitic term but it gets the effect) the "push of the pike".

The Battle at Leuctra
371 B.C.

In Thebes two strong men had come to the front: Pelopidas and Epaminondas. Especially Epaminondas was a brilliant leader and general who was a very flexible person in a rapidly changing world of warfare. The Spartan army was commanded by one of its two kings: Cleombrotos. The Spartans marched into Boeotia under the command of their king Cleombrotos and stopped at Leuctra, not far from Thebes. Epaminondas knew that his army was severely outnumbered, but realised that he had to face the Spartans nevertheless. He managed to convince his men that an open battle was their only hope and together with their elite unit 'the Devoted Brothers in Arms', under the leadership of Pelopidas, they entered the plains. Cleombrotos placed his army in a half-moon 12 men deep phalanx , with peltasts (javilineers) covering both sides of the phalanx. Epaminondas had completly different ideas. His strategy was based on two principles.

The first principle that a direct fight between two phalanxes could end up in two different ways of fighting. The hoplites could attack each other with their spears, or they could end up with their shields pressed against each other. Two completly different ways with the same result: the phalanx that would lose its formation would become an easy target and would most likely lose the battle. When the hoplites ended up with their shields against each other the battle looked a bit like a rugby match: the side who could press the hardest would break the enemy formation. Epaminondas realised that he could gain an advantage with a deeper phalanx. For the Spartans this tactic was new as they always relied on their spears, but the Thebans had already defeated Athens at Delium with a phalanx of 25 men deep.

The second principle was that one of the main problems of the phalanx had been to keep it going straight forward. It always tended to curl to the right, as the hoplite instinctive moved to the right to gain more protection from the shield of the hoplite beside them. Epimondas used a sloped phalanx with the strong left wing moved forwards. The left wing would destroy the right wing of the enemy, which traditionally consisted of the strongest and most experienced fighters, creating confusion among the enemy and breaking open the right wing. Now the left wing could break through the formation and attack the rest of the hostile phalanx in the side or in the back while the rest of the friendly phalanx got close enough to attack the enemy.

Epaminondas thus placed his army in the formation of a sloped phalanx. The left side of his phalanx was 50 men deep, but because of this he did not have enough men left to form a right wing. Peltasts would cover the right side of his phalanx, while the cavalry and the 'Devoted Brothers in Arms' (traditionally this corps consisted of 150 homosexual male couples) would protect the left side.

Cleombrotos orders his troops to attack, and his cavalry charges forward. Epaminondas also directs his cavalry to the front where they clash into the Spartan cavalry. The Spartans are outnumbered but manage to hold their position nonetheless until a charge of the 'Devoted Brothers in Arms' forces them to retreat. Now the Theban cavalry can attack on its turn, and they pin down the peltasts and a part of the phalanx down on the Spartan right wing. This way they prevented the Spartan phalanx from moving aside, so they keep the strong right wing in place for a direct attack of the 50 men deep Theban left wing.

Cleombrotos finally realises Epaminondas' plans when the Theban phalanx moves in for the kill. He attempts to reinforce his right wing but the well timed charge of the 'Devoted Brothers in Arms', who form the front of the Theban left wing, leaves him no time for this. Confusion sets in among the Spartans when the Theban shields clash onto theirs. Cleombrotos is killed in the first stage of the struggle and the confusion among Sparta and its allies becomes even bigger when the weight of the Theban phalanx pushes the Sparta phalanx back.

The Thebans push back the Spartans even further, while the peltasts are destroyed by the cavalry. The Spartan formation breaks in their right wing, but the whole phalanx is so scared at this time that it completely retreats before the Spartan left wing and the Theban right wing had even participated in battle! Pursued by the Theban cavalry, the Spartans and their allies flee to their camp. Sparta had lost about 500 men during the battle, while another 500 were killed during the retreat to their camp. Thebes only lost 300 men.

http://monolith.dnsalias.org/~marsares/warfare/battle/leuctra.html

[krazybuc]

You historical accuracy guys are forgetting...this movie is based on a comic book that's based on reality. it's not based on the pure reality of the spartans.

if black hawk down had been made into a frank miller comic book and then into a movie, i would expect some unrealistic moments.

EXACTLY

[dalbuc]

The Battle at Leuctra
371 B.C.

I understand it in a logical sense but seeing the effect and being able to "watch" guys eyeballing that wall of spears down would be something I'd love to see. All i know is I'd hate to be in front.

[escobar]

I know there is already a thread about this but I wanted to bring this one up anyway. There was a big debate on whether this film would be historically accurate and if the fighting would be realistic, and I think it pretty much was. The "leaping" dal refered to happened in one scene I can remember and it was the final one where King Leonidis kneeled down to Xerxes and one of his soliders leaped off of his back to throw a spear into one of Xerxes' messengers. The fighting technique (assembled very closely with shields protecting the knee to the neck) also seemed very realistic and also entertaining. Just curious what you guys thought now that the movie is out.

[dr3z]

ITS A **CENSORED**G MOVIE!!!!! Dudes are leaping like 6 feet in the air for a kill!! No one complains about that sh#%!! GOD!!

[leeroybuc93]

I know there is already a thread about this but I wanted to bring this one up anyway. There was a big debate on whether this film would be historically accurate and if the fighting would be realistic, and I think it pretty much was. The "leaping" dal refered to happened in one scene I can remember and it was the final one where King Leonidis kneeled down to Xerxes and one of his soliders leaped off of his back to throw a spear into one of Xerxes' messengers. The fighting technique (assembled very closely with shields protecting the knee to the neck) also seemed very realistic and also entertaining. Just curious what you guys thought now that the movie is out.

They did explain the Phalanx quite well in it and they used it often.  All in all it was a good movie.  Obviously they took some liberties like 30 foot tall elephants, but it was entertaining.

[Boid Fink]

The movie was awesome.

Best movie I have seen in quite some time.

Me and the GF went to it today, and I loved it...man the fight scenes were loud and fantastic!  The slow mo-speed up was done to perfection.  I could see the action as it occured, rather then just seeing fractions of a scene, and chaotic camera shots to make me feel the intensity.  Well done.  Bravo!!

I would be interested to see what Spartan thinks about this film.   

We went to watch it tonight, and I didn't rate it as highly has everyone else.  No one in my family thought it could hold a candle to Gladiator. 

[rayfsc07]

I would be interested to see what Spartan thinks about this film.

We went to watch it tonight, and I didn't rate it as highly has everyone else. No one in my family thought it could hold a candle to Gladiator.

That is how I felt.

It was a good movie, I enjoyed it and all, but Gladiator was much better IMO.