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#15 : March 04, 2009, 11:22:09 PM

There were a lot of flaws in this guy's logic. Somebody should tell him about the Williams boys in Minnesota. They seem to be doing alright. There was one statement in his article that made a little sense, however. He said, "And Bates' defense is not very cap friendly. It requires two man coverage corners, big linebackers, large DTs, and pass rushing DEs. None of those come cheap." I think we are learning that in free agency.

Perhaps, but then again, we also found out with the help of our defense as well that the Tampa-2 can also get very expensive as well.  We aren't that far removed from the cap hell that we were in with Simeon Rice, Brooks, and others contracts on the defensive side of the ball as well.

You certainly pay a dividend for pass rushers in this league, but in just the d-line alone the percentage of cap space that was ate up by our starters was a pretty sizable chunk IIRC.  Whether it is Bates' scheme or Kiffin's scheme there is always the chance that it becomes very expensive in a hurry.

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#16 : March 04, 2009, 11:26:23 PM

There were a lot of flaws in this guy's logic. Somebody should tell him about the Williams boys in Minnesota. They seem to be doing alright. There was one statement in his article that made a little sense, however. He said, "And Bates' defense is not very cap friendly. It requires two man coverage corners, big linebackers, large DTs, and pass rushing DEs. None of those come cheap." I think we are learning that in free agency.

Perhaps, but then again, we also found out with the help of our defense as well that the Tampa-2 can also get very expensive as well. �We aren't that far removed from the cap hell that we were in with Simeon Rice, Brooks, and others contracts on the defensive side of the ball as well.

You certainly pay a dividend for pass rushers in this league, but in just the d-line alone the percentage of cap space that was ate up by our starters was a pretty sizable chunk IIRC. �Whether it is Bates' scheme or Kiffin's scheme there is always the chance that it becomes very expensive in a hurry.


I think that is why out approach has been in recent years to keep building the defense through the draft rather than through free agency. It's a lot cheaper that way. Most of our picks the last 3 drafts have been on defense (Adams, Talib, Ruud, Piscitelli, etc.)

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#17 : March 04, 2009, 11:28:51 PM

This guy is an idiot, and is the same guy that embarrassed himself over his man-love of Booger McFarland, even as the Colts D got worse after he arrived.

First of all, he doesn't have his facts right at all:

- Peyton Manning didn't arrive and rescue offenses from the "big fatties" in the middle. The no huddle offense isn't something that Manning conjured up - it's been around a lot longer than that. If he thinks Manning faced Bates as a rookie, he's mistaken. Bates didn't arrive until 2000.

- In 2000, Indy ranked 4th in points and scored 26+ points per game. Bates' D held them to 14 and 20.
- In 2001, Indy ranked 2nd in points and scored nearly 26 per game. Bates' D held them to 24 and 6.
- In 2002, Indy ranked 17th in points, and scored nearly 22 per game. Bates' D held them to 13.
- In 2003, Indy ranked 2nd in points, and scored nearly 28 per game. Bates' D held them to 23.

That's it for Bates at Miami. They did cross swords in 2007 as he notes, but as he says, they didn't run Bates' D. Plus, Manning and the Colts had monster games against 2 Tampa-2 teams and 2 3-4 teams - are those defenses obsolete as well?

For what it's worth, Manning did carve up Miami in 1999, before Bates arrived, but they didn't start "2 big fatties" nor did they have large linebackers. They had Tim Bowens, who was big, but they also had the 295 Darryl Gardner, and 2 linebackers - Derrick Rodgers and Zach Thomas who went 230 lb and would fit in most Tampa-2 defenses.

His comment about the "salary cap era" is dumb. Bates has only been a DC in the salary cap era.

Plus, if Manning killed the "big fatties," what the heck were the Ravens doing winning the SB in 2000 with Goose and Sam Adams? In 2002, Oakland got to the SB with Sam Adams and 300 lb. John Parella. The Carolina Panthers team that went to the SB featured Kris Jenkins and Brentson Buckner.  

As for the cost of the team, do big DTs cost more than the elite 3-technique DTs? Are pass-rushing DEs not used in the Tampa-2? Are "big linebackers"  more expensive than small fast linebackers?  

I think the only advantage the Tampa-2 has cap-wise is the corners.

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#18 : March 04, 2009, 11:30:22 PM

If you have good players, they end up costing you.



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#19 : March 04, 2009, 11:39:13 PM

If you have good players, they end up costing you.

Yup, and whether it be a tampa-2, 4-3, 3-4 each system has guys that you pay premium dollars to pass-rush, pass-coverage, run stuff, etc.  As I stated above, with just the starters on our d-line, youseen a very good portion of cap space eaten up because of them.  His wiki link is also flawed, MLB does play the role of dropping deep into coverage, but arguably it is not the most important part of the defense, there were three tiers to the Tampa-2 that Dungy and Kiffin made successful and that was UT, WLB, and SS.  Sapp, Brooks, and Lynch were the cogs that made the defense work.  They were the leaders and commanded their respective field responsibilities.  Dungy and Kiffin designed it so that the first filter for tackling was to "spill to the will" and just because Lynch was a heavy hitter did not necessarily mean that the system requires one. 

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#20 : March 04, 2009, 11:39:36 PM

Small, fast linebackers use to be a lot easier to get in the draft before other teams started copying the Tampa 2, since they were considered undersized for the NFL. They were also a lot cheaper to retain in free agency, since they did not fit into other teams' schemes.

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#21 : March 04, 2009, 11:42:44 PM

What a waste of time that was.   I should have stopped reading it when he either, compared Derrick Brooks to a college safety who was too slow to play that in the NFL, or actually said DB was a safety at FSU.   Either way he's a moron.     He also fails to realize that if the offense goes no huddle to wear out the big DL players that teams big OL players have to deal with it as well.    There will still be plenty of teams running a version of the Tampa 2 defense.  Just because Monte goes to coach in the college ranks doesn't mean his legacy and footprint on the game suddenly disappears.   It's still a very good defense if you have the right players for it and they all do their jobs.  When ran properly the only weakness I see in the scheme is a little soft spot in the middle of the field.  With a good MLB though you can minimize that.   Remember that INT Ruud had last season?  That one he bobbled around and came up with in the endzone?   That's how you need your MLB to play in the Tampa 2.  He got deep and stayed with the WR step for step.  Just a shame they all collapsed in December.  


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#22 : March 04, 2009, 11:45:26 PM

The only part of that article that has a Wow! affect on me is the picture of Monty. It is amazing how full of energy he looks coaching in intense August heat. I really think he will succeed in Tennesee, at least on the defensive side.

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#23 : March 05, 2009, 12:58:11 AM

If you have good players, they end up costing you.

Yup, and whether it be a tampa-2, 4-3, 3-4 each system has guys that you pay premium dollars to pass-rush, pass-coverage, run stuff, etc.  As I stated above, with just the starters on our d-line, youseen a very good portion of cap space eaten up because of them.  His wiki link is also flawed, MLB does play the role of dropping deep into coverage, but arguably it is not the most important part of the defense, there were three tiers to the Tampa-2 that Dungy and Kiffin made successful and that was UT, WLB, and SS.  Sapp, Brooks, and Lynch were the cogs that made the defense work.  They were the leaders and commanded their respective field responsibilities.  Dungy and Kiffin designed it so that the first filter for tackling was to "spill to the will" and just because Lynch was a heavy hitter did not necessarily mean that the system requires one. 

I don't know...I played QB and in facing zone coverage, receivers were a little more nervous with big hitters in the secondary in a zone than they would be in man coverage.

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#24 : March 05, 2009, 05:22:11 AM

I couldn't resist, I had to post on there. The guy is an idiot.

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#25 : March 05, 2009, 05:36:33 AM

He's an idiot and a homer and he somehow thinks the Tampa-2 is the only viable 4-3 defense.  Look around the league; it clearly isn't true.

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#26 : March 05, 2009, 06:07:47 AM

stopped reading after he implied that Brooks was a college safety, and that Dungy brought Raheem into the league...Rah came to the Bucs in 2002, so it was Kiffin/Gruden/McKay that brought him into the league...

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#27 : March 05, 2009, 06:27:24 AM

technically I think Herm Edwards had him in as defensive intern for the Jets in 2001. First paid job was in Tampa though.

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#28 : March 05, 2009, 11:36:51 AM

My thing is the Tampa 2 is getting old. People are finding ways to beat that D obviously. And Bates has pretty good ranked Ds in the past so...

To beat the tampa 2, all a team really had to do was have two brusing runners and dash up the middle constantly. The last four games showed that. Each game we gave up massive running yards down the middle. There were other problems of course, but teams have had PLENTY of time to dissect our defense, and Kiff isn't here anymore to run it correctly anyhow.

The way that reads there should never have been a defense called the tampa 2. If it was as easy as just running up the middle, well w t f that defense would have never existed.

I can just imagine it now.... *cue twinkle music*  Young Monte and Tony thinking... "How can we create a defense that will get is own name and get us and those coaches around us jobs and make us a needed asset to many NFL teams."  ... ... "I know we'll make a defense where to beat it all you have to do is run up the middle. No one will ever figure that out!" ... "well maybe eventually but running up the middle is so far down the list of stuff to try, it'll be too late, we'll already have gotten better jobs and our Defense will have it's own name just like the great D's of the past."


DYK, we have a college football forum... http://www.pewterreport.com/forum/index.php?board=5.0

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#29 : March 05, 2009, 11:38:19 AM


P.S. Bucs really don't have any big fatties. I guess Sims is close.


We use to have Shaun King.

Now see had you thrown the "Burger" in the middle that would have made all the difference.

DYK, we have a college football forum... http://www.pewterreport.com/forum/index.php?board=5.0
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