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#45 : March 25, 2009, 01:54:02 PM

Saying Faine is 20 times better than Christie.

1sparkybuc

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#46 : March 25, 2009, 01:59:59 PM

Did Jon Gruden leave the team.........
.......in better shape than he found it?

Okay, I'll play.

 ï¿½ � � �Gruden inherited: � � � � � � � � �Gruden left us: � � � � � �Better or Worse: on a scale of +5 to -5
QB....Brad Johnson � � � � � � � � � � � � Luke/Griese � � � � � � � � � � Worse � � � � � � � � -4
RB....Alstott/Pitmann � � � � � � � � � � �Graham/Dunn � � � � � � � � � Little worse � � � �-2
WR...Keyshawn/Jaquez Greene � � A. Bryant/Galloway � � � � � Better � � � � � � � � +1
TE....Dave Moore/crap � � � � � � � � � �Stephens/Smith � � � � � � � Better � � � � � � � � �+2
OLT..Yatta Walker � � � � � � � � � � � � �Penn � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � �Way Better � � � � �+4
RT � �Wunsch � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � �Trueblood � � � � � � � � � � � � Way better � � � � +4
LG � �Randell McDaniel (age 37) � � �Davin Joseph � � � � � � � � � younger/ better �+4
RG � Cosey Coleman � � � � � � � � � � � Sears � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � Waaay better � � �+5
C.....Jeff Christy � � � � � � � � � � � � � � Faine � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � younger � � � � � � �+2

LDE Marcus Jones � � � � � � � � � � � � White/Carter � � � � � � � � � � �meh � � � � � � � � � �+1
RDE Simeon Rice � � � � � � � � � � � � � Gaines Adams � � � � � � � � � �worse � � � � � � � � �-4
RDT Warren Sapp � � � � � � � � � � � � Keith Sims/Haye � �catastrophically worse � -5
LDT McFarland/Darby � � � � � � � � � �Hovan � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � �lil better � � � � � � �+2
WLB DBrooks (28) � � � � � � � � � � � � DB (37) � � � � � � � � � � � � � � �older � � � � � � � � � -3
MLB Jamie Duncan � � � � � � � � � � � �Ruuuuuud � � � � � � � � � � � � �much better � � � �+3
SLB Quarles � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � �Cato June � � � � � � � � � � � � � worse � � � � � � � � -3
CB Brian Kelly � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � Talib � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � push � � � � � � � � � �0
CB Ronde � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � �Barber � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � older � � � � � � � � � �-3
SS John Lynch � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � J. Phillips � � � � � � � � � � � � � worse � � � � � � � � �-3
FS Dexter Jackson � � � � � � � � � � � � Tanard Jackson � � � � � � � � better � � � � � � � � +3

K Gramatica � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � Matt Bryant � � � � � � � � � � �less � � � � � � � � � � �-1
P Royal � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � �Bidwell � � � � � � � � � � � � � � push � � � � � � � � � � � 0
KR Frank Murphy � � � � � � � � � � � � � Peanut � � � � � � � � � � � � � � Are you kidding � � �+5
PR Karl Williams � � � � � � � � � � � � � �peanut/platoon � � � � � � � �still better � � � � � � �+2



� � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � total......................+9


I guess he did leave us off better.
 ï¿½ � � � � � � � � � � �

Funny thing is when I started this I thought I'd come up with a -2 or -3 for slightly worse, objectivity can be a female dog.

Excellent breakdown. Pittman wasn't here when Gruden arrived and McCown and Josh Johnson have potential. I would prefer potential over a veteran QB on his last legs. Other than that, I would only disagree with the point differential in some of your comparisons. Thanks for going to all that trouble.

I sometimes wonder if Gruden would still be here if had just had the guts to go with potential over experience at QB. We'll never know for sure. I really hope Luke makes Gruden regret that decision.  I believe he will. I'm more curious than worried about our Defense. The coaches must see something that is not obvious to the rest of us. They sign two LBs in free agency and appear content with that. There have been no panic signings for the DL or DBs. They have their sights set on something in the draft and it might not even be on defense.

I had a good feeling in 2002, and it's back.

bucmoon

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#47 : March 25, 2009, 07:24:37 PM

 Mckay , Bennett , Perkins and Williamson left the team in bad shape but Wyche, Dungy and Gruden left the team decent shape just some missing pieces like every other team except the Patriots .

TheOnly1Phenom

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#48 : March 25, 2009, 10:18:28 PM

So if Raheem wins the Superbowl in the next two years, will you goons get off the Dungy Superbowl thang?

Everyone will be on the Gruden's Team thang not Dungy anymore, and in 5 years people will be hollering for a better coach like Gruden.

We as Buc fans are never happy with the present, only the past will satisfy us.



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#49 : March 25, 2009, 10:23:25 PM

How in the hell??!!! That's easily the reason we're better now. We're out of salary cap hell!!!

We're outta "salary cap hell" for a variety of reasons..... three of which being Bruce Allen's cap prowess, a significant rise in the salary cap AND the fact that we have no players worthy of commanding mega contracts.

bucmoon

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#50 : March 25, 2009, 10:38:26 PM

Did Jon Gruden leave the team.........
.......in better shape than he found it?

Okay, I'll play.
    Pittman

        Gruden inherited:                  Gruden left us:            Better or Worse: on a scale of +5 to -5
QB....Brad Johnson                         Luke/Griese                     Worse                 -4
RB....Alstott/Pitmann                      Graham/Dunn                   Little worse        -2
WR...Keyshawn/Jaquez Greene     A. Bryant/Galloway           Better                 +1
TE....Dave Moore/crap                    Stephens/Smith               Better                  +2
OLT..Yatta Walker                          Penn                                Way Better          +4
RT    Wunsch                                  Trueblood                         Way better         +4
LG    Randell McDaniel (age 37)      Davin Joseph                   younger/ better  +4
RG   Cosey Coleman                       Sears                               Waaay better      +5
C.....Jeff Christy                             Faine                                 younger              +2

LDE Marcus Jones                         White/Carter                      meh                    +1
RDE Simeon Rice                           Gaines Adams                    worse                  -4
RDT Warren Sapp                         Keith Sims/Haye    catastrophically worse   -5
LDT McFarland/Darby                    Hovan                                lil better              +2
WLB DBrooks (28)                         DB (37)                              older                   -3
MLB Jamie Duncan                        Ruuuuuud                          much better        +3
SLB Quarles                                  Cato June                           worse                 -3
CB Brian Kelly                               Talib                                   push                    0
CB Ronde                                      Barber                               older                    -3
SS John Lynch                               J. Phillips                           worse                  -3
FS Dexter Jackson                         Tanard Jackson                 better                 +3

K Gramatica                                   Matt Bryant                      less                      -1
P Royal                                          Bidwell                             push                       0
KR Frank Murphy                           Peanut                             Are you kidding      +5
PR Karl Williams                            peanut/platoon                still better              +2



                                                                                              total......................+9


I guess he did leave us off better.
                       

Funny thing is when I started this I thought I'd come up with a -2 or -3 for slightly worse, objectivity can be a female dog.

    Pittman was a free agent signed march 26th , 2002 after Gruden was already here and Alstott was on the backnine of his career .So Gruden left the team with better RBS than when he came .

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#51 : March 26, 2009, 12:01:53 AM

There's no argument it is worse, much worse. what can you even argue any other way - 2002 we had Super Bowl level talent, do we have Super Bowl level talent now? No.

Did he fix the offense? No. Never even came close and our talent when he walked out the door was average or worse at almost every spot. Even the vaunted OL still ranks in the 20's so that bunch is a lot of effort for not much outcome.

The defense persisted but it wasn't replenished.

2002 Gruden added 7/11 starters to that SB caliber offense. The offense was in shambles and Dunn ran- he was the only weapon other than Alstott. Offense when he walked in was average at best and was the same when he was canned. Defense was still a top 10 when he left, but the DL was putrid compared to when he got here.


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#52 : March 26, 2009, 12:04:12 AM

So if Raheem wins the Superbowl in the next two years, will you goons get off the Dungy Superbowl thang?

Everyone will be on the Gruden's Team thang not Dungy anymore, and in 5 years people will be hollering for a better coach like Gruden.

We as Buc fans are never happy with the present, only the past will satisfy us.
Pretty much what I was getting at...thank you.

Gruden is a good coach.  End of discussion.


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#53 : March 26, 2009, 01:56:53 AM

I think calling the team aging at that point is a little premature.  Most of the core were in their late 20s still.

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#54 : March 26, 2009, 10:40:41 AM

    Pittman was a free agent signed march 26th , 2002 after Gruden was already here and Alstott was on the backnine of his career .So Gruden left the team with better RBS than when he came .

yeah, I missed that. Edited it but kept the score the same.  IMO which is very highly subjective and based on years of beer drinking, Alsott in '02 was slightly better than Graham now and Dunn in '02 was a lot better than Dunn in '08. If anything he left the team with much worse RBs than when he started if you don't count Peanut as an RB. Now adding Smith to the mix does change things but I had him as a KR/part time PR and I didn't want to count him twice.


Not saying I agree or disagree with you, just saying the highly scientific statistical analysis used in my rankings has a margin of error of +/- 63.87%


bucmoon

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#55 : March 26, 2009, 12:08:04 PM

    Pittman was a free agent signed march 26th , 2002 after Gruden was already here and Alstott was on the backnine of his career .So Gruden left the team with better RBS than when he came .

yeah, I missed that. Edited it but kept the score the same.  IMO which is very highly subjective and based on years of beer drinking, Alsott in '02 was slightly better than Graham now and Dunn in '02 was a lot better than Dunn in '08. If anything he left the team with much worse RBs than when he started if you don't count Peanut as an RB. Now adding Smith to the mix does change things but I had him as a KR/part time PR and I didn't want to count him twice.


Not saying I agree or disagree with you, just saying the highly scientific statistical analysis used in my rankings has a margin of error of +/- 63.87%
All Gruden got was Alstott, Travis Stephens and Aaron Stecker  , Dunn was free agent when Gruden came and left for ATl. .. Id have to give a slight edge to Graham - Caddy-C.Smith as far as the future goes  .

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#56 : March 26, 2009, 12:14:32 PM

    Pittman was a free agent signed march 26th , 2002 after Gruden was already here and Alstott was on the backnine of his career .So Gruden left the team with better RBS than when he came .

yeah, I missed that. Edited it but kept the score the same.  IMO which is very highly subjective and based on years of beer drinking, Alsott in '02 was slightly better than Graham now and Dunn in '02 was a lot better than Dunn in '08. If anything he left the team with much worse RBs than when he started if you don't count Peanut as an RB. Now adding Smith to the mix does change things but I had him as a KR/part time PR and I didn't want to count him twice.


Not saying I agree or disagree with you, just saying the highly scientific statistical analysis used in my rankings has a margin of error of +/- 63.87%
All Gruden got was Alstott, Travis Stephens and Aaron Stecker  , Dunn was free agent when Gruden came and left for ATl. .. Id have to give a slight edge to Graham - Caddy-C.Smith as far as the future goes  .

In that case, I'll agree.


[irrelevant rant]
Dunn didn't want to leave, Gruden didn't want Dunn to leave....man I still hate Rich McKay.
[/irrelevant rant}

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