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T

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: January 29, 2007, 05:05:17 PM

How was D Joseph a reach, when Seattle was targeting him?? Can't label him a bust or reach yet, it's been one year. It's like grading the draft a day after the draft.




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#1 : January 29, 2007, 04:22:17 PM

i'd be interested in seeing the statistical breakdown of Quarles career year.  i don't get any satisfaction in watching a MLB make tackles 3 and 4 yards beyond the LOS.  i'm amazed at how you look at the number of tackles and get enamored with the guy that had the most.  DBrooks had arguably his worst year ever with a helmet on his head and he still statistically was up there with tackle counts.

watch the film and see where contact is made.  i will say this on behalf of Quarles, i watched him take on lead blockers at the point of attack much better this year than i've ever seen him before.  i think that is what is coming across from his coaches when they say he's playing at a high level.  i do not think it is the tackle totals - a very misleading stat...

all that being said - i don't think Ruud is athletic enough to be a long term answer for this defense.  if he were, he would have challenged already.  no offense to Shelton, but if he couldn't outrun the younger Ruud, he'da been watching more than playing...  Ruud seemed to have his tackles broken alot too - that's scary on this defense.  We have a lot of hitters, but tackling fundamentals were pretty scarce in '06.

Well, Quarles had his career year LAST year, not this year.  He played incredibly well last year.  This year, he was effected by injuries and that knocked him down a notch.  He wasn't truly healthy for the last 10 games or so.  The point stands though, that Quarles has elevated his play the last two or three years above and beyond of what we expected from him

I actually think that DB played better this year than last.  I thought he tackled a bit better this year over the last, and he would've had two INTs for TDs if he hadn't had that one called back in the first ATL game.  His deficiencies were covered up a bit last year with the wins.

Overall, though, the tackling was horrendous this year.  I just don't think that Ruud is part of the overall problem that this dfense has right now.

dalbuc

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#2 : January 29, 2007, 04:21:29 PM

all that being said - i don't think Ruud is athletic enough to be a long term answer for this defense.  if he were, he would have challenged already.  no offense to Shelton, but if he couldn't outrun the younger Ruud, he'da been watching more than playing...  Ruud seemed to have his tackles broken alot too - that's scary on this defense.  We have a lot of hitters, but tackling fundamentals were pretty scarce in '06.

If true this is a sad indictment of a high #2 pick. I disagree though because Ruud has shown a good deal of athletic ability. I agree that R2 players need to play and we really lose value every year Ruud doesn't play but the staff thought Quarles was about to crater and they misjudged how much life he still had in him. The problem isn't about Ruud it is about the high level Quarles continue to play at past the expectations of the staff.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

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#3 : January 29, 2007, 04:11:57 PM

i'd be interested in seeing the statistical breakdown of Quarles career year.  i don't get any satisfaction in watching a MLB make tackles 3 and 4 yards beyond the LOS.  i'm amazed at how you look at the number of tackles and get enamored with the guy that had the most.  DBrooks had arguably his worst year ever with a helmet on his head and he still statistically was up there with tackle counts.

watch the film and see where contact is made.  i will say this on behalf of Quarles, i watched him take on lead blockers at the point of attack much better this year than i've ever seen him before.  i think that is what is coming across from his coaches when they say he's playing at a high level.  i do not think it is the tackle totals - a very misleading stat...

all that being said - i don't think Ruud is athletic enough to be a long term answer for this defense.  if he were, he would have challenged already.  no offense to Shelton, but if he couldn't outrun the younger Ruud, he'da been watching more than playing...  Ruud seemed to have his tackles broken alot too - that's scary on this defense.  We have a lot of hitters, but tackling fundamentals were pretty scarce in '06.

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#4 : January 29, 2007, 03:53:19 PM

No matter what happens, i hope the Buc's do not pull a move similar to Buffalo last year when they selected Donte Whitner with the 6th overall pick. Tampa has already shown signs of "reaching" in the past with Davin Joseph, and Barret Rudd. If we want the guy, and he will probably be on the board a few draft spots later, we need to try and trade down. I could see this happening with Carriker or Okoye.
I don't rip teams too bad for so-called reaches. The player just needs to turn out to be a stud. Does anyone rip Seattle for taking Tatupu in the 2nd round? No, because he turned out to be really good. By all accounts Whitner has been pretty good, at least as good as Michael Huff who the Raiders grabbed one pick earlier everyone seemed to be cool with.
If drafting a "safe" player is reaching, the other option is to draft a player with more upside, but with more chance to bust.  Niether Joseph or Ruud are busts. They were both good unspectacular but safe picks.   If thats "reaching" then so be it, but most of the time when you talk about reaching you are talking about wishing and hoping that a player has more than what most people think. That really wasn't the case with Joseph or Ruud.  The "experts" respected both of those players.  They were high production, dependable character guys from big time programs.  The Bucs simply wanted to make sure they got some production out of their players, rather than taking a high risk high reward player.


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#5 : January 29, 2007, 03:51:18 PM

I don't see the hate with Ruud. The guy has shown he can be all over the field and make tackles as well as be quick enough to drop back in coverage. Like everyone says, the only reason he's still on the bench is because Quarles seems to have found a fountain of youth and has made an argument to being the best LB on the team in certain games.

But as to reaching for Okoye with the 3rd/4th overall, if Okoye shows up well in the combine, I expect him to break into the top 10 and maybe even top 5 on many boards. That said, I think Gruden would draft Thomas if he gets a chance at him. If not, then he would probably look at CJ/Okoye.



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#6 : January 29, 2007, 03:48:09 PM

Oh if we can do that then it's a no brainer, but I'd rather 'reach' for our guy than drop 5 spots and have a team trade ahead of us and snag him.

That's my point. I think you can make great value picks at times, but if you focus too much on "who should go where" you sometimes miss on your guy, because you've over-thought it.

Anyway, production determines value, and if half of what I'm hearing about Okoye is true, he SHOULD be in that upper stratosphere of #'s 1-5. He seems to have the moves, the strength, the intelligence and leadership to possibly turn him into a franchise-type player.

And he's 19 years old. I think his experience growing up must give him a unique perspective and it seems to have given him a advantage over those of us with a more limited range of experience.

I relaly do hope that it's in the cards for him to be a Buc. If we could only pick up Calvin Johnson, Joe Thomas and Okoye, I would be satisfied. ;)
I guess I'd be okay with those three....;)



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#7 : January 29, 2007, 03:47:36 PM

Plus...(padding my post count)...Okoye's intelligence does seem to fit the way that we've been drafting recently.  I think Gruden salivates over this type of person: not only a dominant physical force, but also a truly complete person.

No, I don't know Okoye personally, this is just the impression I get.  I was on the Glenn Dorsey bandwagon until he pulled out, now...I love Okoye.



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#8 : January 29, 2007, 03:44:29 PM

Oh if we can do that then it's a no brainer, but I'd rather 'reach' for our guy than drop 5 spots and have a team trade ahead of us and snag him.

That's my point.  I think you can make great value picks at times, but if you focus too much on "who should go where" you sometimes miss on your guy, because you've over-thought it.

Anyway, production determines value, and if half of what I'm hearing about Okoye is true, he SHOULD be in that upper stratosphere of #'s 1-5.  He seems to have the moves, the strength, the intelligence and leadership to possibly turn him into a franchise-type player.

And he's 19 years old.  I think his experience growing up must give him a unique perspective and it seems to have given him a advantage over those of us with a more limited range of experience.

I relaly do hope that it's in the cards for him to be a Buc.  If we could only pick up Calvin Johnson, Joe Thomas and Okoye, I would be satisfied.  ;)



Guest
#9 : January 29, 2007, 03:38:06 PM

Oh if we can do that then it's a no brainer, but I'd rather 'reach' for our guy than drop 5 spots and have a team trade ahead of us and snag him.



Guest
#10 : January 29, 2007, 03:35:33 PM

And Okoye at 4 (assuming J-Russ, CJ, and Thomas are off the board) would be a great pick IMO, you're just not going to find depth at the DT position like the DE position this year.

Agreed...but in the end, whether or not a player was a "reach" depends on his performance.  If Davin ends up being all we hope he will, he was a great pick.  In retrospect, if we had chosen Sapp #1 overall, he would've been a good pick.  I have no problem with Okoye at that spot, although I'd prefer to drop 5 spots and get him, along with another #2 if we could...

He would change the whole complexion of our D-line.  I envision him, Hovan and Wymms getting time inside, with White, possibly Rice or another acquired DE or two coming in off the edges.  We'd be much more like the Bucs D-line of the past, especially if we can get Wymms playing at the level he showed flashes of this year, only minus the injuries.

This, in turn, would make the rest of our D look MUCH better.

Which, in turn...nevermind, I'm getting carried away.



Guest
#11 : January 29, 2007, 03:26:50 PM

Well, I don't fault the Ruud pick. He's just playing behind a guy who, at the age of 35, is playing the best football of his career. Ruud still looks like a winner to me. If anything, this time on the bench could help him down the line.

Also, depending on what happens over the next three months, that "Okoye at #3" pick might not end up being such a rech after all.
And Okoye at 4 (assuming J-Russ, CJ, and Thomas are off the board) would be a great pick IMO, you're just not going to find depth at the DT position like the DE position this year.



Guest
#12 : January 29, 2007, 03:20:50 PM

Well, I don't fault the Ruud pick.  He's just playing behind a guy who, at the age of 35, is playing the best football of his career.  Ruud still looks like a winner to me.  If anything, this time on the bench could help him down the line.

Also, depending on what happens over the next three months, that "Okoye at #3" pick might not end up being such a reach after all.



Guest
#13 : January 29, 2007, 03:17:49 PM

I'm not sure reaching is a bad thing, sometimes it's better to get the devil you know than the one you don't....if it's at a lower value position then perhaps it's not a good idea, but Okoye is what a 5-6 pick reach for a key position on our defense and is a superior talent?



Guest
#14 : January 29, 2007, 03:15:51 PM

Correct.

In 2009 Ruud becomes a RFA.

Thanx ADW
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