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SunnyD

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#15 : April 06, 2009, 11:44:09 PM

"Thank God that the run contain system is behind us.  It proved to be a disaster in Denver, and Denver fans will forever say the words "Jim Bates" with just a little snarl when the subject comes u

However, as football scholars, we should understand the system before we discard it as being a "bad" system.  While I care little for the system, I have to acknowledge that it is a pretty good approach to defense.  The key is to have the right players in place, and we didn't.  Because we will be discussing the system for years to come whenever the "terrible '07 season" is brought up, I thought we should understand what it is we are talking about.

The system itself is popular at the middle school and even some HS levels (particularly in 4-4 formations).  The complexity is obviously dumbed down, but it is a great system against run heavy teams.  Bates took the system to a new level in Miami after tinkering with it in Dallas.  Let's take a deeper look.

Read on...

 



From birth, football fans are taught that there are two types of coverages for a defense.  One is "man coverage", which involves a player being assigned to cover another player.  The other is "zone coverage", which involves a player beng responsible for an area.  Welcome to the third way.

Contain is a system that is based on the idea of "vectoring" an opposing player into an area of the defense's choosing.  The OLBs are responsible for herding running plays to the center of the field, where the MLB makes the tackles.  It's a pretty complex concept, but one that is deadly when performed well.

The theory behind the system goes like this.  No runner is allowed to go out of bounds.  This means that he can only take a finite number of approaches towards the endzone.  In zone or man coverages, we take chances with one-on-one tackles, but what if we could change the dynamics so that the lane the opposing player takes always leads towards the center of the field?  In other words, back towards ten other defensive players?

The DTs must be big, and able to hold the center of the line (not penetrate) .  Because the opposition will be forced to run the center as the game goes on, the DTs are critical for stopping the run.  They are also responsible for protecting the MLB, who will take out any runners being vectored from the edges.   For this reason, the DTs ignore most pass situations and simply hold the center.

The OLBs have the strangest job.  It involves not tackling an opposing player unless that player takes a cut back towards the center of the field.  This means that the OLB must run alongside the runner as the runner heads towards a sideline to keep him from reaching the edge and tearing down the field along that sideline.  When the runner realizes he can't get past the defender, he'll have to cut back.  When he does so, he faces the other ten defenders (heading towards him) as well as the "container", who is now allowed to make the tackle.

Most often, the MLB makes the tackle.  Note that DJ Williams had the second most tackles in the NFL in '07 (even with the system only employed for part of the year).

 

Denver probably liked the system because it matched well in the AFC West.  oakland uses the Zone Block system for running, and the Contain system is a terrific counter for two reasons.  One, the DTs aren't making one gap moves, and aren't crashing to either side (making the blocks much more difficult).  The other reason is that the "one cut" move by the runner plays into the hands of the defense's system (movement back towards the center of the field).  SD also faced match up problems, as the system would have been a check on LT's agile running.  Best of all, Denver was eager to take away the run game of any opponent, and force teams to throw towards CBs Bailey and Bly.  The thought had to make the coaching staff salivate!

Alas, the DTs and OLBs (the hearts of the system) failed.  The DTs weren't capable of holding the line (though Williams compensated well), and the OLBs were caught overpursuing and failing to anticipate the cutbacks.  The tackling was poor all around.

System Advantages:

Takes away the outside run.
Meets the inside run with DTs and a MLB dedicated to run stopping assignments on most every play.
Swarm type defense creates multiple fumble recovery possibilities.
Speed is the emphasis for the DEs and OLBs, and this allows for effective blitzing in the pass game.
In general, takes away the run and forces teams to pass.


Disadvantages:

If the runner beats the defender to the sideline and turns upfield, it's a bad, bad day.
Requires the DTs to be above average 2 gappers, big, and patient.
Requires the OLBs to be fast, but also very intelligent and patient.
Sacrifices the thought of using the DTs in a pass rush.
Steep learning curve for the players.
In general, requires a perfect set of player types for the system to run well. "


http://www.pewterreport.com/forum/index.php?topic=37906.msg798058;topicseen#msg798058


Understanding your not laughing at me, but your actually laughing at your new DC's entire defensive philosophy.


Boid Fink

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#16 : April 06, 2009, 11:53:20 PM

So Sims, Moore, and Hovan are Bates idea of his "prototype" gap defenders?

Some guys weigh 320 pounds.  But some guys are fat as well.  Know what I mean?


SunnyD

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#17 : April 06, 2009, 11:54:34 PM

I think Peterson, Sims and Moore are definetely big enough to do what Bates will ask them to do.

But back to what started this debate...

Not only do I think Jerry isnt big enough (Weighed in at 290 at his pro-day) I don't think he is good at the things Bates would ask him to do (Control a gap, not shoot it)

Boid Fink

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#18 : April 07, 2009, 12:01:57 AM

I think Peterson, Sims and Moore are definetely big enough to do what Bates will ask them to do.

But back to what started this debate...

Not only do I think Jerry isnt big enough (Weighed in at 290 at his pro-day) I don't think he is good at the things Bates would ask him to do (Control a gap, not shoot it)
Jesus.  It is not improbable thatthe guy can put on 10 pounds to meet a standard.  The guy is a good DT, as far as THIS draft is concerned.  Bates is going to need soem guys who can shoot a gap.  I am sure he is not fond of loitering, and neither am I.

Sims and Hovan have how many combined pressures in the last 4 years?  What about Wilkerson?  Is he not "undersized"?  Moore is unmotivated, and by no means should he be automatically penciled in to the lineup because of a "feel good" article that was written.  If the light has not come on after the draft, if that could not get him motivated, I think maybe he is on the tenuous line of being a bust-a-roo.  Pass rush should natuarlly come from the front 4.  Bates has even stated that he would prefer if the front 4 could rush on their own.  Blitzing is done to create havoc, and we will see a lot of it this year...espescially considering the DTs generate no pressure.  And are not all world run stopper, either.

Jerry would at least provide a situational player that on third and long can actually "shoot" the gap.  I am 1 billion percent sure that even Bates is aware of this.  Bates cannot be pleased with his DTs insofar as today.  How can he be?  They are not the best run stoppers he has ever worked with.  They got destroyed toward the end of the year.


Boid Fink

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#19 : April 07, 2009, 12:08:31 AM

Lemme just ask you guys this then:

Do you think the DT situation is workable THIS season?  Or do you think opponents running backs are drooling for a chance to run on us again?

I like adding Crowell.  He helps.  Ruud is solid enough.  But Gaines, White, Wilkerson, Moore (I hope he pans out, but not holding my breath), are these guys the best front line run defenders?  Even Sims?  He is borderline BUST as well. 

I am not happy with the DTs.  Bates needs to evolve.  Dinosaurs have passed on...


SunnyD

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#20 : April 07, 2009, 12:58:18 AM

I think they will spend one of their first three picks on a DT and with that included I think the DT situation is workable this season.

I notice you're leaving Peterson's name out, and I think he will play a bunch.

I agree Bates needs to evolve.

Thats a big big knock on his system. His defense is extremely predictable. If his two DEs aren't getting to the QB then there is virtually zero pass rush from the front four because the DTs are focusing on stopping the run. Couple that with their size and there is a reason Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Drew Brees have picked apart Bates' defenses with a no-huddle attack.

Boid Fink

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#21 : April 07, 2009, 01:24:47 AM

I think they will spend one of their first three picks on a DT and with that included I think the DT situation is workable this season.

I notice you're leaving Peterson's name out, and I think he will play a bunch.

I agree Bates needs to evolve.

Thats a big big knock on his system. His defense is extremely predictable. If his two DEs aren't getting to the QB then there is virtually zero pass rush from the front four because the DTs are focusing on stopping the run. Couple that with their size and there is a reason Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Drew Brees have picked apart Bates' defenses with a no-huddle attack.
I think those cats picked apart the Bucs defense with Kiffin involved.

Good QBs can do that to you. 


HughC

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#22 : April 07, 2009, 02:27:35 AM

Waiting for nextyears prospects is laughable, IMO.

Too much can happen between now and then to consider NEXT years draft, when their are a lot of question marks concerning THIS one.

Tampa is going to get GOUGED this year. I find it almost quite stunning that so many of you do not think the DTs unit is a MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR issue with the BUcs. There is absolutely NOTHING good about what they are going in with. I mean NOTHING.
Once again you and I butt heads on one debate, yet agree on another.

Yes, I want a DT.


Aside from the lack of quality/lack of depth at DT, this may be the most important position in our defensive scheme.  You need to start with the DT, who gets enough push to command help from a second player on the other side of the ball - and will also hopefully blow up the pocket and take away the idea of a quick burst up the middle by the RB.  That in turn will leave a DE open around the edge to get pressure on the QB.  That DT won't get many stats, but his play will have a domino effect: take away runs up the middle, force the QB to drop back further, force the QB out of the pocket, allow the DE to pressure the QB and make him throw too early, allow the DE to hit the QB and cause him to make bad decisions later, cause the offense to keep another TE or RB in protection, all of which allow a DB to have a better chance to defense the pass - or perhaps make a pick. 

Without that quality DT, every other player on defense is affected in a negative way.

JavaBuc

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#23 : April 07, 2009, 02:37:55 AM

What's wrong with Hovan?

Boid Fink

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#24 : April 07, 2009, 02:40:44 AM

What's wrong with Hovan?
He is what he is.

Nothing wrong with him, aside from the fact he is mostly a gap defender, and NOTHING else.  And he gets overwhelmed very easily, or from what I have seen it seems that way.


ilovebeer

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#25 : April 07, 2009, 03:01:46 AM

I understand the concern for our interior run defense.... But Tampa's run D was doing a mediocre job the first 12 weeks.  No reason to panic.  Yes, we should upgrade but its not panic mode just yet.



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#26 : April 07, 2009, 06:54:18 AM


pocket collapsing to his 1 gap schemes.


That is laughable. I mean, it would be all nice and dandy, but runners usually do not run into the arms of DTs. And the BUcs DTs are probably the worst group he has ever worked with, and that is me being honest.


Bates doesnt want that except in obvious passing situations.

His whole scheme basically revolves around the DTs waiting for the RBs to run to them.



Boid Peria Jerry is the PERFECT fit for the Monte Kiffin pass rushing DT defense. Bates wants his defensive tackles to fill space and swallow runs. Pass rush comes from DE and LB

Peria Jerry has a history of getting double teamed out of plays because he is so small...he relies on his speed bursts to beat guards but when he is doubled up in a running play he is took out

of his position with ease. We need ground round  not sirloin....

pancake block

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#27 : April 07, 2009, 07:06:45 AM

i dont think we should draft out of nesessity, that move allways NEVER pans out. I think forcing a move at dt just to do it when jerry is not the scheme player needed is a disaster. A short term answer( 2 or 3 years) would be to bring in dwayne roberson / tank johnson or both. They havent signed yet meaning their idea of gettin payed and market value should make them more affordable. What the deuse, see if jason taylor wants to come back to florida. bring in some competition at d line cause right now its looking scarie bad even with jerry


rowdie

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#28 : April 07, 2009, 10:24:17 AM

Well there goes Raji, hello Brace.


DYK, we have a college football forum... http://www.pewterreport.com/forum/index.php?board=5.0

Pteranodon

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#29 : April 07, 2009, 10:38:40 AM

I'm against really taking players that completely fit Bates scheme and ignoring ones that don't. Players might be with the team longer than Bates will if he doesn't do a good job.
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