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doobiedoright

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#30 : April 11, 2009, 11:08:11 AM

Yes there are laws against it!
And as usual you side with the nutjobs!


kmitchell

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#31 : April 11, 2009, 11:36:40 AM

Sounds like the pirates live around that area, have plenty of weapons, and are willing to die for money. They should run security for these shipping vessels, kind of like the Sunni Awakening Council of Iraq. If they had a guaranteed income of $2,000/month running security through the the Gulf of Aden, they could still live like kings. I know it is a farfetched idea, but I'm just throwing it out there.


Morgan

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#32 : April 11, 2009, 11:38:02 AM

Yes there are laws against it!
And as usual you side with the nutjobs!

exactly - there are other ways for a country to seek retribution than letting bandits kidnap and hold guns to innocent people's heads

John Galt?

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#33 : April 11, 2009, 12:30:59 PM

Yes there are laws against it!
And as usual you side with the nutjobs!

exactly - there are other ways for a country to seek retribution than letting bandits kidnap and hold guns to innocent people's heads

The key word being "Country" as in a political entity with a unified government. Somalia doesn't have a functional government. One warlord toke steps to stop the dumping but he isn't in power any more. Others may have tried diplomatic means but that doesn't do much good when the dumpers know the next weekly coup D'etat is scheduled for Wednesday.

What I don't get is why the ships don't just detour a hundred miles further offshore, out of the pirates range. If you know the area is a steaming pile of fecal matter full of heavily armed nutjobs, why not burn a little extra fuel and give them a WIIIIDE margin.


Skull and Bones

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#34 : April 11, 2009, 12:39:20 PM

I'm not finding any internationalm maritime laws against arming merchant ships.  It was a very common practice during times of piracy and war.  Here's a story about the current Somalian crisis that suggest the shipping companies could have security but are too cheap to do so.




Cover Story
All at sea
 Business is bad, piracy makes it worse. And there's little shippers can do
 Dhruv Rathi and Navan Ignatius


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Mumbai's encounter with terror lasted for 59 excruciating hours. But ships plying through the Gulf of Aden, connecting Europe to Asia and the Middle-East via the Suez Canal, have been living with it for much longer. Somali pirates have been capturing cargo ships plying in the world’s busiest shipping lane, regardless of which flag they fly. The ships are released only after a few million dollars of ransom is paid. “The pirates have already attacked more than 90 ships this year,” says London-based P Mukundan, Director, International Maritime Bureau (IMB). Of these, at least 40 have been hijacked. Ransom negotiations are on for about 14 of them.

 

According to a United Nations estimate, shipping companies have paid close to $31 million in ransom this year. According to estimates, around $100 billion of India’s maritime trade passes through the Gulf of Aden. “On an average, seven to eight of our ships pass through the Gulf every month, and, in all, about 24 Indian ships pass through it every month,” says a Great Eastern Shipping Corporation spokesperson. On November 11, one of the company’s bulk carriers came under pirate attack, but an Indian navy warship patrolling the area saved it from being hijacked.

 

Relying on GPS receivers, the pirates, who are scattered along the 3,000 km Somali coastline, can track all shipping in the area— tankers, cargo vessels, cruise ships, even small tuna fishing boats. The pirates, armed with AK-47s and rocket-propelled grenades, use small boats, which are much faster than the merchant ships, to pursue them. Using grappling hooks and rope ladders, they board the merchant ships and quickly subdue the crew, who are not allowed to carry arms.

 

Patrol boats can’t be everywhere. Shippers can’t carry firearms. They can engage private security, but they can ill-afford the higher costs
 
With shipping rates falling globally, firms are finding it hard to increase security spends. “Security costs for cargo ships have been less than 1% of revenues,” says Sudhir Ragnekar, former director of Shipping Coroporation of India and CEO of Sical Logistics. “We need satellite control systems and better  communications equipment,” he points out. To avoid pirate-invested waters, some global shipping companies are routing around the Cape of Good Hope—a much longer route. The re-routing will entail later cargo deliveries and signifi cant extra costs. “The alternate route increases the journey by 15 days or more,” says IMB’s Mukundan.

 

Adding to the woes is the increase in piracy insurance costs. According to the Lloyd’s List, a London-based shipping newspaper, piracy off the coast of Somalia may add more than $400 million a year to insurance costs of shipping companies. “Charters have to pay extra premiums while taking such routes,” says Isabh Syed,  Managing Director of Mumbai-based BHN Shipping. The companies are also concerned that Indian crew members—comprising a sixth of the world’s seafarers—may now be reluctant to sail in the Somali Seas.

 

In fact, the attacks has prompted the shipping ministry and merchant associations to urge the Indian Navy to deploy more ships in the area. The US and EU countries, as well as Russia, are already patrolling the region but the long Somali shoreline is too vast to monitor with a few ships.

 

Some shipowners are exploring the use of private armed personnel to guard ships sailing through Somali waters. “One can have armed guards while passing through that route. It is a cheaper way of fighting the pirates,” says Syed of BHN Shipping. But it’s not a lasting solution. Somalia has had no army, police, navy or coast guard for more than 20 years. Th e country is a patchwork of fiefdoms controlled by local warlords. “It’s a failed state”, says IMB’s  Mukundan. “The long term-solution is that Somalia should have a stable government”.





John Galt?

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#35 : April 11, 2009, 12:49:48 PM

I would bet that the shippers inablility to arm themselves has to do with Insurance. Lloyd's of London probably has rules against armed merchant vessels.

I knew a phosphate tanker captain that used to run between Tampa and Colombia and he kept a stash of guns onboard. He said the Coast Guard's rules were they had to be secure under lock and key. Of course Americans think that way, must these other countries don't.


Skull and Bones

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#36 : April 11, 2009, 01:06:14 PM

some of these ships are carrying cargo that would be dangerous to engage in a gun fight that is true.  But I would think a sniper with a high powered rifle could pick them off before they got in range to fire their AK-47s and grenade launchers.


Biggs3535

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#37 : April 11, 2009, 01:50:31 PM

I think in this situation it's important to know what the pirates are doing with any money or whatever they're getting from these hijackings before passing judgment...

Nothing justifies these hijackings.


dalbuc

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#38 : April 11, 2009, 06:13:03 PM

exactly.  the world has pretty much crapped on these people and they are doing what they have to do to survive. 

No, they've pretty much crapped their own beds. The world has done nothing to these clowns except try and help people who'd rather shoot each other than not. The idiot warlords of Somalia, if they cared a whit about their own people, could stop this tomorrow but they'd rather live their Hatfield-McCoy lifestyle.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

dalbuc

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#39 : April 11, 2009, 06:14:38 PM

Sounds like the pirates live around that area, have plenty of weapons, and are willing to die for money. They should run security for these shipping vessels, kind of like the Sunni Awakening Council of Iraq. If they had a guaranteed income of $2,000/month running security through the the Gulf of Aden, they could still live like kings. I know it is a farfetched idea, but I'm just throwing it out there.

The mafia does the same thing where it is cheaper to pay them to protect your store than bust it up.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

Skull and Bones

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#40 : April 11, 2009, 06:16:37 PM

I'm talking about the average citizen trying to feed his family.


dalbuc

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#41 : April 11, 2009, 06:21:13 PM

I'm talking about the average citizen trying to feed his family.

There's no distinction in the case of theclan structures in Somalia. These aren't iron-fisted Stalin types running the show, these are (extended) families at war so the leadership is highly sensitive to their "average" members.

Plus, do you excuse any poor folks here in the USA who are trying to "feed their families" if they are car-jacking people and taking hostages for ransom?

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

Skull and Bones

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#42 : April 11, 2009, 06:28:19 PM

I'm not justifying it or making excuses.  I'm only saying I understand why.  People got to eat.  The govt. of Somalia pretty much collapsed after they decided to invade Ethiopia in the late 70s and they got their butts handed to them because the USSR decided to back the communist Ethiopia and the west decided it didn't care.  Most of these pirates probably weren't even born then.


John Galt?

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#43 : April 12, 2009, 01:06:53 AM

I'm not justifying it or making excuses.  I'm only saying I understand why.  People got to eat.  The govt. of Somalia pretty much collapsed after they decided to invade Ethiopia in the late 70s and they got their butts handed to them because the USSR decided to back the communist Ethiopia and the west decided it didn't care.  Most of these pirates probably weren't even born then.

A little bit of history. Ethiopia would have kicked their buts w/o Soviet help. Ethiopia almost kicked Mussolini's butt, and they had tanks, machine guns, dive bombers, etc against a bunch of Ethiopians with muzzle loading rifles. Ethiopia is a very established country with a very old history, Somalia is a ghetto like suburb of Ethiopia that has never been all that stable. Imagine Seffner trying to invade Tampa. Or Finland invading the USSR in '41 only without Germany, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria and Italy to distract them.

Yes Russia helped them, a little. Just like we helped Britain, a little, when Argentina decided to take the Falklands. But in both cases the outcome was never in doubt.


Morgan

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#44 : April 12, 2009, 01:08:24 AM

I guess you can equate the hijacking as a way the shipping industry pays a "toll" to pass by the waters of Somolia - even though it is international waters.  Sounds like the shipping industry considers this the price of doing business in that region of the world.  Somalia is a country out of control - and the next terrorist breeding ground like Afghanistan was/is.
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