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LFO

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: April 29, 2009, 06:29:32 PM

Did you happen to check out what his rushing stats were in the games his completion % suffered? How about his RB's? Do you  recognize these names - Leon Patton,James Johnson, Thomas Clayton? they were his running backs.

You obviously understand that when I say Freeman out-dueled the top opposing QB's in the conference (Bradford and McCoy) in heads up competition - that should resonate. If freeman was bad...while racking up HUGE numbers in the biggest games...but the opposing QB's could not do AS WELL against the K-State defense, then that's not a good thing.

I think he killed Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Missouri and he made Auburn glad they didn't have to see K-State and Josh Freeman on a regular basis. It sells me that everything this kid could do to win - he tried. When he needed to pass in his Junior year - there's nearly 3000 yards and 20 TD's to look at that proves it. When he needed to run in his final (Junior) season - he rushed for 400 yards. He finished with more Total yards passing and 6 fewer TD's than Stafford in the same number of years. And we've already discussed the talent level on both sides of the ball.

I know more about K-State than I ever wanted to - I know more about Freeman than you want to. You picked your poison - now you have to live with it...

Just remember - I'll always bring you back to this: You wanted Gruden fired and your number one reason was he never found the QBotF - well, you got your wish, and now you don't like the outcome of that either. It's a bitter pill...no, actually...

it's cake.

And I'm enjoying it.

because I'm not sure whats worse for you - Gruden as your coach, or Freeman as your "QB of the future?

LOL

MORE ASSumptions made by you that are incorrect.

I never wanted Gruden fired.  Try again.

You can have your cake  all you want. 

I think you sound more ignorant with each post though.  You don't KNOW anything more than me.  You do like to twist and call names to try and make points though, which I find laughable. 

The White Tiger

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#1 : April 29, 2009, 06:41:08 PM

While I could go in and pick that apart, I'll simply state it this way:

He finished with more Total yards passing and only 6 fewer TD's than Matt Stafford in the same number of years. And we've already discussed the talent level on both sides of the ball.

for a more balanced approach - try looking at Freeman's 2007 stats: http://nfldraft.rivals.com/cviewplayer.asp?Player=65280
The 2007 team utilized a 2 tight end set, power running game, a down-field threat in Jordy Nelson behind a ZBS...

I'll let you find your own peace with Josh Freeman - I am not trying to say the kid is NFL ready. I think he's smart enough to learn the mental side of the game - he comes with that as his only downside. He obviously has things to learn, I think he can. What in his make-up proves to you that he can't?

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LFO

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#2 : April 29, 2009, 06:53:08 PM

While I could go in and pick that apart, I'll simply state it this way:

He finished with more Total yards passing and only 6 fewer TD's than Matt Stafford in the same number of years. And we've already discussed the talent level on both sides of the ball.

for a more balanced approach - try looking at Freeman's 2007 stats: http://nfldraft.rivals.com/cviewplayer.asp?Player=65280
The 2007 team utilized a 2 tight end set, power running game, a down-field threat in Jordy Nelson behind a ZBS...

I'll let you find your own peace with Josh Freeman - I am not trying to say the kid is NFL ready. I think he's smart enough to learn the mental side of the game - he comes with that as his only downside. He obviously has things to learn, I think he can. What in his make-up proves to you that he can't?

What does what he and Stafford did have to do with anything?  Was the competition and defensive level the same?  That's comparing apples to oranges.

LOL

Keep grasping at straws my friend.

What about his make-up bothers me?  Maybe it is the fact that he didn't seem to elevate his team or players around him.  Great players make those around him better, and I did not see that.  Maybe it is despite facing porous defenses he could not beat them.  Maybe it is the fact that when he played the better teams last year (and better Being used loosely), he struggled to complete 50% of his passes, and didn't throw a ton of TD's but threw most of his picks.  It's not like he was playing GREAT defenses, so I am not buying the whole "his team sucked" thing.  Fine, they didn't beat Kansas or those other teams, but why was he so dismal?  Drops?  Not buying it.  I saw several times he over/under throws open WR. 

Fine, you think he is going to be great.  I am less optimistic.  Why is it that you feel you need to slam your opinion down my throat, call me names, and talk to me in a condescending manner?  Agree to disagree and move on.  There is no PROOF of anything.  You have your opinion based on what you see, I have mine.  I doubt either is going to change because of this exchange.  You made your point, I have made mine.  Move on and wish for the best.  That is what I am doing.

dalbuc

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#3 : April 29, 2009, 07:06:29 PM

I'll let you find your own peace with Josh Freeman - I am not trying to say the kid is NFL ready. I think he's smart enough to learn the mental side of the game - he comes with that as his only downside. He obviously has things to learn, I think he can. What in his make-up proves to you that he can't?

It isn't about smart, it is about consistency for me.

If you saw his A&M game (95th rated pass defense) you likely thought he was a pro level stud. If you saw him vs Nebraska (89th ranked pass defense) when he got benched you wouldn't. He's got to work to become the guy he was vs A&M more than the guy vs. Nebraska. Neither of those defenses is, statistically, that different from one another -- they both suck. Those games aren't about talent around him because the talent against him didn't change a ton. If he can refine what he does to the point where good Josh is out there more than bad Josh then we're money.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

The White Tiger

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#4 : April 29, 2009, 07:28:12 PM

I think the filter you are looking for (balanced talent) occurred in 2007. Check out Freeman's completion percentages in 2007 - his first full season as starter - the consistency you seek would seem to be there.

Make up your own mind. Perhaps you could help understand what name I called you that caused your feelings to be hurt?

...because for an obnoxious poster, you're pretty sensitive (and have a really short memory):

LOL

MORE ASSumptions made by you that are incorrect.

I think you sound more ignorant with each post though.  You don't KNOW anything more than me.

You do like to twist and call names to try and make points though, which I find laughable.  

Twist? Sure - it's my thing.

Call names?

I think many here would be surprised about that one - perhaps you could supplyl the name I used that offended you?

I am looking forward to watching Josh Freeman become the guy we drafted him to become - because I am a Buc fan.

Hope you are too, Buc fan.

By the way - did you happen to see the part where I showed you that during Freeman's best season K-State used better talent in similar personnel groupings while running the exact offense the Bucs are installing...right down to the ZBS?

I mean if you want to take the focus off of yourself for any reason...

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The White Tiger

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#5 : April 29, 2009, 08:05:31 PM

No, I'm cool.

I keep posting interesting stuff but because you keep filling up pages of this thread about yourself, you've missed a very interesting point:

In Josh Freeman's most consistent and first full season as starting QB at K-State they had almost equal talent with the rest of the conference, employed a two TE set, power RB, and utilized Jordy Nelson as a vertical threat, behind a zone blocking scheme.

Sound familiar?

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The White Tiger

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#6 : April 29, 2009, 08:07:14 PM

2007 was different for another reason - it was the season they had a defense.

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LFO

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#7 : April 29, 2009, 08:17:17 PM

No, I'm cool.

I keep posting interesting stuff but because you keep filling up pages of this thread about yourself, you've missed a very interesting point:

In Josh Freeman's most consistent and first full season as starting QB at K-State they had almost equal talent with the rest of the conference, employed a two TE set, power RB, and utilized Jordy Nelson as a vertical threat, behind a zone blocking scheme.

Sound familiar?

LOL, whatever.  Not wasting any more time with you arguing Freeman.  Typical OSU fan, always right, and always better - had fun with your type in Glendale/Atlanta though. 

dalbuc

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#8 : April 29, 2009, 08:24:53 PM


In Josh Freeman's most consistent and first full season as starting QB at K-State they had almost equal talent with the rest of the conference, employed a two TE set, power RB, and utilized Jordy Nelson as a vertical threat, behind a zone blocking scheme.


Again the talent argument gets weak since:

1. KSU had the same record 2007 and 2008. More talent didn't lead to more wins?
2. 2 of their top 3 guys at receiver came back and the replacement got 1000+ yards so if it is all about Jordy Nelson then we shoulda drafted him
3. They averaged MORE points this year (29) than last (28) with the better talent (against Div1A foes).
4. The defenses across the B12 were worse this year than last


All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

dalbuc

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#9 : April 29, 2009, 10:15:32 PM


Let me see if I can track your logic path: Freeman isn't a good QB for the Bucs because he was inconsistent - you even offered a few of his worst games and added to that his overall 53% completion record during his college career as proof - but when I provide you an example of an entire season when Freeman had near equal talent around him, including defensively, he had a season of consistency - you switch your position and say your previous argument isn't meaningful?


No, you are missing the point. You claim the talent dropped off the map and so a potential franchise QB was helpless to not get benched versus one of the worst pass defenses in the NCAA. My counter to that (weak) argument is that the talent didn't drop off as dramatically as you seem to think given that KSU had the same record, mostly the same players. That isn't a team that went from being really good to really bad, it is a bad team that stayed bad. KSU was consistent in how badly they sucked from year to year but Freeman didn't stay consistent in his game. The only "proof" that 2007 was better is that Freeman was better and so your logic becomes circular. Lack of talent can't explain that because, for example, a quick look at the depth chart shows that most of his OL returned (LOG did not) and of those returners 2 got passed over by other players by 2008 so those players were, presumably, better than the guys he had playing in front of him in 2007 and most of his top receivers came back.

The other problem with the "talent" theory is the one you keep missing - week to week variability. KSU sucked in 2007 but Freeman was stable week to week. Then, in 2008, when KSU once again sucked he was all over the map with his games. There's no way you can shred A&M's bad pass defense (95th) and then get plowed by Nebraska's 85th ranked defense and Missouri's 96th ranked defense.

BTW, having a weak defense should help his cause because when he is getting face stomped by 26+ ppg like he did during B12 play he should get some combo of backups and prevents to pad his stats.

Like I said, there's a reason he didn't go #1 overall because his ceiling is higher than the other QB's drafted. People didn't just "hate" on him. They saw something that bothered them enough they'd take two guys that I think are weak prospects in Stafford and Sanchez. What was it they saw to not take him? I don't think it was his accuracy because that looks good. It isn't the overall decision making because he doesn't throw a bundle of INT's after his freshman year which doesn't really count. It isn't arm strength or pocket awareness. Those also seem to be pretty good. So what made Stafford and Sanchez more highly desirable to two NFL teams who did take a QB and others who needed a QB but didn't take him? My answer to that is that in his final year he did not come out and perform at a consistent level even when you factor in talent and opposition. If you have a better answer to why he wasn't taken higher I'd love to hear it because there must be some reason.


All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

LFO

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#10 : April 27, 2009, 08:44:21 PM

Oops, sounds like your telling stories out of school...those PM's from RJ weren't supposed to be shared in public...

Hmmm, why is it - do you think - that a guy like Freeman was desired by at least two teams in the first round?

Because there were others that fit the description of "...physical freak that can throw the ball a mile" one being Tom Brandstater - except he was drafted in the 6th round BY DENVER (the team Dominik & Morris were worried would beat us to the drafting Freeman)....another would be Nate Davis - except he was drafted in the 5th round...

So your analysis, like your posts, is shallow and wrong.

What the hell are you talking about?

Is it your "plan" to go from tangent to tangent as a distraction, that way people don't see how stupid your posts are? 

*claps*  Job well done.

And LOL @ a 6th round choice meaning anything about Denver and Freeman.  In fact, that might make the opposite point.  You REACH for a guy like that later....you don't spend your 1st rounder on a QB project.....

SO tell me again how Brady and Cassel are similar to Freeman?  Can't wait....

The White Tiger

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#11 : April 27, 2009, 09:13:14 PM

You go ad hominem too quickly - it means you've run out of data or are free-falling - or both.

Don't attack the poster - attack the post - stay focused on the point.

P.S., you're a little light on data.

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LFO

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#12 : April 29, 2009, 09:57:21 PM


But I did smoke out LFO's bias - he's a Gator who wanted us to wait to draft a QB so we could draft his boy Tebow...

...where my money's been all along.

Again, another ASSumption made by you that is incorrect. But I guess it is easier for you to just CLAIM that rather than actually have an honest debate.  Typical Buckeye, they want everything handed to them, think everything is theirs, and think they don't have to work for it.  I know, I met thousands of you in Glendale/Atlanta. You'd think after Glendale when they all disappeared in the middle of the game, they would have been a little more low key and humble in Atlanta.  But nevertheless you buckeye's never cease to amaze, probably were equally as bad in Atlanta, but at least there were fewer of you....

I wish I would have seen your money on the line, as it would have been mine shortly thereafter. 

The White Tiger

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#13 : April 29, 2009, 09:27:42 PM


In Josh Freeman's most consistent and first full season as starting QB at K-State they had almost equal talent with the rest of the conference, employed a two TE set, power RB, and utilized Jordy Nelson as a vertical threat, behind a zone blocking scheme.


Again the talent argument gets weak since:

1. KSU had the same record 2007 and 2008. More talent didn't lead to more wins?
2. 2 of their top 3 guys at receiver came back and the replacement got 1000+ yards so if it is all about Jordy Nelson then we shoulda drafted him
3. They averaged MORE points this year (29) than last (28) with the better talent (against Div1A foes).
4. The defenses across the B12 were worse this year than last



Then I have a problem with your own position regarding Freeman's sub 60% completion record.

Dal - not getting your point as there is no consistency in your argument.

Let me see if I can track your logic path: Freeman isn't a good QB for the Bucs because he was inconsistent - you even offered a few of his worst games and added to that his overall 53% completion record during his college career as proof - but when I provide you an example of an entire season when Freeman had near equal talent around him, including defensively, he had a season of consistency - you switch your position and say your previous argument isn't meaningful?

Sorry you guys aren't making sense.

But I did smoke out LFO's bias - he's a Gator who wanted us to wait to draft a QB so we could draft his boy Tebow...

...where my money's been all along.

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The White Tiger

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#14 : April 29, 2009, 10:07:29 PM


But I did smoke out LFO's bias - he's a Gator who wanted us to wait to draft a QB so we could draft his boy Tebow...

...where my money's been all along.

Again, another ASSumption made by you that is incorrect. But I guess it is easier for you to just CLAIM that rather than actually have an honest debate.  Typical Buckeye, they want everything handed to them, think everything is theirs, and think they don't have to work for it.  I know, I met thousands of you in Glendale/Atlanta. You'd think after Glendale when they all disappeared in the middle of the game, they would have been a little more low key and humble in Atlanta.  But nevertheless you buckeye's never cease to amaze, probably were equally as bad in Atlanta, but at least there were fewer of you....

I wish I would have seen your money on the line, as it would have been mine shortly thereafter. 

sniff, sniff....

I'm still smelling smoke..

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