Best drafts so far

[alldaway]

I really thought Philly made some good picks and really good pick-ups (Peters and Hobbs).  I think they had the best draft when it was all done.

I have to agree with this.

Normally I think Reid's drafts are peculiar, but this one was money.

[Biggs3535]

I respect your decision to walk away from this discussion. On your way out I must say one more thing - for someone so sensitive to innuendo and tone - you do have quite the affinity for the obnoxious, punctuated by incessant name calling.

It's weird.  I can get into arguments/debates with you, FRG, Boid, Dal, Olaf, DTG, and many other posters here and not have it turn into garbage.  The other poster in question can't seem do to that with anybody....but it's always other people's fault...

Rayville:  Population - 1.

[LFO]

LOL @ RJ

Posting garbage like that helps....

[The White Tiger]

Lets see - you're either looking at the argument too closely or have become intractable - points 1, 2 & 3 are destroyed by Freeman's 2007 season.

I'm gonna try and simplify this for you because you want to argue something I'm really 100% not interested in and isn't relevant to anything I've said. Lets assume that KSU was insanely more talented in 2007 than 2008- they weren't but you want to think that so we'll roll with your theory to hosw you how what you think you've proven doesn't matter by way of analogy.

In 2007 I was given a Ferrari and asked to drive to Oklahoma 12 times at midnight. It takes me an average of 30 minutes each drive. Some days it took 25 and some days it took 35 depending upon traffic.

In 2008, I was given a peapod (http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/12/peapod-mobility-arrives-on-earth-day/) to perform the same task 12 times at midnight. It takes me 2.5 hours on average to make the same drive. Some days it took 4.5 hours and some days it took 45 minutes, then it took 3.75 hours and another day it took 1.5 hours.

Now you are arguing that if you go from a Ferrari to a Peapod your performance should decline (the all his talent left argument). My concern isn't that 2007 to 2008 changes. My concern is why an average drive of 2.5 hours (a decline that can be understood) sometimes took 4.5 hours and sometimes took 45 minutes. The two things are wholly different arguments and it is his performance within the Peapod that worries me.

Why are we talking about Oklahoma? K-State's in K-A-N-S-A-S...

Besides you lost me with the whole "...is it farther to California or by bus..." argument...(blinding me with BS now?).

Why on the HECK would you be worried about the anomaly? Even if I bought your argument it's relevance would only apply if Freeman were drafted by a team that was desperate for him to start, a "peabod" type team that had no talent at running back, no talent at WR, no talent at TE, and had as bad of an offensive line as he had in college (relative to the opposition's talent).

He will have probably equal talent to his opposition - if not better in some cases. The point I'm making is, once the kid begins to make defensive reads - even rudimentary reads - he will be better than any QB we've ever had here. He will perform more like the Josh Freeman of 2007. He will NOT have to be the superman Josh Freeman of the 2008 K-State Wildcats.

It's nice to know that we have a kid who has thrown for 3000 yards and (22 passing TD's) while rushing for 400 yards (and another 14 rushing TD'/s) in a single season.  I'd much rather have a kid who threw for nearly 3400 yards and 21 TD's and maintained a 63% completion rate.

See even though he OBVIOUSLY lost talent his Junior season he didn't have a drop off in passing TD's and only minimal fall-off in passing yardage. Teams were keying on the one weapon K-State had - Josh Freeman - but he rplaced ALL of the passing yards lost from 2007 with RUSHING yards in 2008 and oh by the way contributed 14 MORE TD's.

Personally (and additionally) I like the fact that superman had to play for the under dogs - he wants to prove he's a good QB. He'll (now) have the talent to make some noise!

That is what the data tells me. It's kind of obvious, actually.

[The White Tiger]

For some reason Dal, I don't think his pea brain is going to get it.  After all, anything that goes against HIS opinion is wrong....

So Dal supporting your argument with his data should make me stop seeing the obvious?

It will take much more than that to challenge my hypothesis.

Because right now we both see something different in the data - until we see Freeman on the field we won't know for sure.

Why - What do you see in the data?

Buc Fan?

[LFO]

I realized we saw something different in the data a long time ago, which is why I stopped arguing. The difference is I respect your take and agree to disagree,

[The White Tiger]

Why would you take a negative stance on a rookie we just selected with a 1st round pick?

What drove my search for the data was to try and find out what they saw in him - combined with the understanding that Raheem saw this kid up close and personal as well as the fact that he's seen what Luke McCown and Josh Johnson could do from a perspective to which we don't have access.

I would not be so presumptuous as to think I could see something in the data that the Buccaneer experts could not...

Dal seems to be looking at the year of inconsistency anomaly and seeing a pattern, I'm looking at a year of consistency and seeing a pattern.

What are you looking at?

[dalbuc]

Why on the HECK would you be worried about the anomaly? Even if I bought your argument it's relevance would only apply if Freeman were drafted by a team that was desperate for him to start, a "peabod" type team that had no talent at running back, no talent at WR, no talent at TE, and had as bad of an offensive line as he had in college (relative to the opposition's talent).

You really, 100% did not get the analogy did you? I mean not even in the neighborhood, county or state.

Simple question: In the season of 2008 (fight your need to talk about 2007), explain why he had some very good games and some very awful games against teams with similar (bad) pass defenses. He had the same personnel all of 2008,  the teams he played were similar and, for the most part, his team was getting clubbed like a baby harp seal so the game situations were similar.

[The White Tiger]

I told you I didn't get your analogy...your analogy wasn't very good as you didn't put the cookie jar on a low enough shelf - or maybe you put them too low...I don't know. Doesn't mean you aren't smart - Just may mean you aren't good enough at explaining your data.

Maybe I'm not either though Dal - as you aren't grasping what I'm saying either - Look, Freeman didn't have the same personnel in 2008 as he'd had in 2007. He lost a 1000 yard rusher, and a 1600 yard reciever.

To overcome that he filled the void himself.

His defense got worse. That K-State was able to maintain the same number of wins as the more talented 2007 team in 2008 is testament to Freeman's growth. If it were not, you could point to something Freeman did; increased fumbles, increased interceptions, decreased yardage, decreased TD production - but you have nothing to point to what you're implying. You cannot claim he was a non-factor, you cannot even claim he was a detractor. You can only draw a conclusion that if he'd had an offensive line and the team could have maintained the rushing effort while also maintaining the 1600 yard effort from ONE of his receivers - the 2008 version of K-State Wildcats would have won more than they lost.

Further evidence that talent dried up is that the only premium draft choices K-State sent to the NFL during Freeman's tenure (excluding himself) were Yamon Figurs (lost to the NFL as a 3rd round pick in 2006) and Jordy Nelson (lost to the NFL as a 2nd round pick in 2007). Freeman was the ONLY drafted player from his 2008 K-State team. It doesn't look like there will be ANY premium picks from K-State in 2010...

Addressing why some teams could stop him, others teams could not in 2008...some of those bad defenses were better than K-States bad offense...aaannndd some of those offenses were much better than K-States DEFENSE. Sometimes he wasn't on the field enough - after all...that IS one way to defeat a guy like Peyton Manning...

It could also be that Freeman had some bad games - every player does - but it's a lot harder for QB's to hide, or take plays off - it kind of shows up in one or two categories (INT's, fumbles) but again, the only thing you would have in your favor making that argument is that in some games Freeman didn't produce as many yards as normal. The games he had the higher rate of interceptions were also games he had pretty high TD and yardage contributions.

...couldn't it just as easily, even more likely, that Freeman's team did quit on their coach? He was fired after the 2008 season...and the cupboard is so bare that Bill Snyder had to come out of retirement to run the football program.

Concerning the benching of Freeman - how do you know it wasn't for his benefit? Since he was K-State's offense? By the way - how many attempts did Freeman's back-up have when he was benched...?

Your argument is becoming specious.