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O.S. Buc76

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#15 : May 16, 2009, 01:03:39 AM

I think people get bored and try and conjure up these battles and in the end it's always - to each his/her own.


bradentonian

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#16 : May 16, 2009, 01:27:59 AM

I will simply say that I believe that there is a heaven & hell and an afterlife but I can't be 100% sure, because no one that I know has been there and done that for a long period and told everyone what they experienced when they came back. However, I am going to go ahead and place a bet with my soul as payment that God does exist and that everyone will be judged, and in the end if I am wrong I won't be penalized at all but if I am right I will be eternally rewarded. It's a win - win as far as I'm concerned.

I can't imagine that a god would be very happy with supposed worshippers who are really only hedging their bets


ufojoe

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#17 : May 16, 2009, 02:37:40 AM

I will simply say that I believe that there is a heaven & hell and an afterlife but I can't be 100% sure, because no one that I know has been there and done that for a long period and told everyone what they experienced when they came back. However, I am going to go ahead and place a bet with my soul as payment that God does exist and that everyone will be judged, and in the end if I am wrong I won't be penalized at all but if I am right I will be eternally rewarded. It's a win - win as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, you've used that reasoning before on this board. So, basically, you're going to believe a certain way because it may save you from damnation? How about you just treat people good without any promise of a heavenly afterlife? Must there be something in it for you in order to be a good person?


The White Tiger

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#18 : May 16, 2009, 03:04:51 AM

I will say anytime man thinks he is superior to God...He's fooling himself...OBD

There is no proof that God exists. Just like there is no proof that God doesn't exist.

Science and religion have been at war for centuries. But it is never the goal of science to disprove God. The goal of science is to discover truth. Anyone who tries to prevent scientific discovery obviously has something to fear. And obviously has private reservations about truth of his own faith.

The current war is being waged by science against religion. Many in science feel the burning need to disprove the existence of God - perhaps you missed the irony tucked in the subject line of the original post? {Hint: whose keeping score...?).

Some points:

Dal - perhaps I've missed your commentary on Darwin's Black Box?

cyber - faulty premise. The folks who have a lot to lose today are the folks teaching the theory that doesn't have enough evidence to be called a fact. Professors and scientists run the risk of endin their careers if their respective universities find out they leave the door open to the theory of intelligent design. Ben Stein documented and confronted this persecution in "Exposed":

"...Ben realizes that he has been �Expelled,� and that educators and scientists are being ridiculed, denied tenure and even fired � for the �crime� of merely believing that there might be evidence of �design� in nature, and that perhaps life is not just the result of accidental, random chance..."

Loved this quote from Ben's mock "Presidents Welcome" to the school of "Big Science":

"...And this year, we are proud to report that in every subject but Science, students and faculty are free to challenge ideas, and seek truth wherever it may lead.

But Science is different. In Science, there is no room for dissent, for dissent is dangerous. That is why we at Big Science simply refuse to allow it. Like dancing, �dissent� can lead to other things
..."

Dal - the mere fact that you're keeping score shows a nascent (perhaps latent?) fear you have regarding the idea that there is a God.

To demonstrate the hypocrisy and fear: Since it's ok for you to keep score with God, is it ok for him to keep score with man?

Whose score will matter most?

I mean, in the end.

Because we're all ultimately just food for worms, right?

Yeah, your side has such catchy jingles...don't know why yours is the minority belief...?

Incomparable sig by Incognito

alldaway

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#19 : May 16, 2009, 08:36:22 AM

Indeed a hurdle has been passed with  regards to RNA, but the other hurdle is how did RNA form in an early Pre Cambrian earth with such an ultra harsh environment?


dalbuc

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#20 : May 16, 2009, 09:26:08 AM


Dal - perhaps I've missed your commentary on Darwin's Black Box?


The score thing was a joke but to this question are you talking about Michael Behe's book Darwin's Black Box? I've read it and it is an interesting attempt to take down evolution by claiming to get into realms where it is all or nothing at the biochemical level and focuses on the flagellum and blood clotting. In reality he is just using an old, perhaps the original argument against Darwin - irreduceable complexity.  The original version of this was that the eye is complex but if you take out any single feature then the whole things stops working. That got beat down badly and so Behe went deeper. In his own way the book is hugely clever but still misguided.

Flagellum are not irreducibly complex since there are dozens are varieties of flagellum of varying complexity. He also assumes that the flagellum always did what it did now but doesn't accept that there are possible fucntions, no longer used, that it did perform at one time.

Blood clotting is really my favorite argument since it seems to be so good. I mean clotting should be an all or nothing gambit. You get cut and your blood must clot enough to stop you from bleeding out but not so much that it clots your entire blood system. It is a great system that appears to be finely tuned. Problem is it isn't really a single system. It is a series of multiple systems within a single organism. Each one is similar to the other. Worse for Behe is that the "irreducibly complex" system is different in many different animals - in other words it isn't irreducibly complex because it can and does work in different ways and with different parts. Some critters - like Dolphins, get along w/o some of the clotting proteins and enzymes that humans and primates use.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

TheChronicHotAir

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#21 : May 16, 2009, 10:47:58 AM

I will say anytime man thinks he is superior to God...He's fooling himself...OBD

There is no proof that God exists. Just like there is no proof that God doesn't exist.

Science and religion have been at war for centuries. But it is never the goal of science to disprove God. The goal of science is to discover truth. Anyone who tries to prevent scientific discovery obviously has something to fear. And obviously has private reservations about truth of his own faith.

Science and God have NEVER been at war.

How can TheInventor of every little scientific principle and detail be "at odds" with it?
Weren't ALL THINGS created BY Him & FOR Him...

Scientific principles and God are "best friends", so to speak...



John Galt?

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#22 : May 16, 2009, 10:57:23 AM

What an absurd argument. God either exists or he doesn't. He doesn't "almost not exist".

You've never heard the "God lives in the margins" argument? The religious types claim that where science leaves off is where god takes up. That's the box. That box god. can be hiding in gets smaller and smaller all the time. There's no arguing "he exists a little" the argument is more precisely that the only place god can live is where we don't understand and as our understanding gets bigger the nooks and crannies of ignorance for god to hide in keep shrinking.

Dal, your logic is a bit flawed. What you posted is evidence that life could have started without outside intervention, but that doesn't prove that it couldn't have started with outside intervention.

I can easily prove that salt (NaCl) can be formed naturally, without intelligent intervention. But this in no way proves that humans (an intelligence) DON'T make salt or that salt creating people can't exist.

It isn't Science 1 God 0, a better title would be Science 1 Creationists 0, God watching from his luxury suite and having a good laugh.


kevabuc

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#23 : May 16, 2009, 11:28:15 AM

Perhaps God is a scientist and the Universe is but his lab.

He doesn't give us proof of His existances because He doesn't know we are looking for it.


\"The budget should be balanced; the treasury should be refilled; public debt should be reduced; and the arrogance of public officials should be controlled.\" -Cicero. 106-43 B.C.

dalbuc

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#24 : May 16, 2009, 11:30:56 AM

Perhaps God is a scientist and the Universe is but his lab.

He doesn't give us proof of His existances because He doesn't know we are looking for it.


This and Galt's answer always leave me asking why you care about god since he doesn't care about you. This remote builder and an agnostic prime mover seems so pointless. I understand people who are attached to an involved and interactive god - they're delusional but I get that loyalty- but this distant god makes no sense. He doesn't do anything but sit there. Take the next step and just realize that the reason god isn't doing anything is that he isn't there,

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

dalbuc

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#25 : May 16, 2009, 11:35:10 AM


Dal, your logic is a bit flawed. What you posted is evidence that life could have started without outside intervention, but that doesn't prove that it couldn't have started with outside intervention.


You can not disprove god since he's not scientific he can't be falsified and your argument can be made about anything - sure lift can get planes off the ground but that doesn't prove god didn't lift the Wright Brothers up. The god-types live and die on the "you can't explain it" argument when dealing with any sort of abiogensis so each time science takes a step forward they just look a little bit more silly.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

O.S. Buc76

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#26 : May 16, 2009, 11:48:22 AM

How about whatever you believe in or don't believe is what you end up with when you die, to me that is fair.  ;)


dalbuc

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#27 : May 16, 2009, 11:54:04 AM

How about whatever you believe in or don't believe is what you end up with when you die, to me that is fair.  ;)

If I get to pick then I'll invent a better god than floaty clouds and harps in that case.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

kmitch

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#28 : May 16, 2009, 11:56:18 AM

How about whatever you believe in or don't believe is what you end up with when you die, to me that is fair. ;)

If I get to pick then I'll invent a better god than floaty clouds and harps in that case.

My god would have a luxury suite in Raymond James for me, with a keg of beer, and the Bucs Cheerleaders kickin it. If the Bible promised me that fairy tale, I might be interested in it.

O.S. Buc76

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#29 : May 16, 2009, 12:00:12 PM

How about whatever you believe in or don't believe is what you end up with when you die, to me that is fair. ;)

If I get to pick then I'll invent a better god than floaty clouds and harps in that case.

My god would have a luxury suite in Raymond James for me, with a keg of beer, and the Bucs Cheerleaders kickin it. If the Bible promised me that fairy tale, I might be interested in it.

Sorry, but your only choices are being with God in heaven, burning in hell with Satan, or not existing at all in a black hole.

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