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rowdie

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#45 : June 02, 2009, 09:04:11 AM

I think Gaines will have his first double digit sack year this year. Under Monte he couldn't do it cause Monte didn't care about DL as much as DB.

Right, Monte didn't care about DL....and the color of the sky in your world is what? Good people in Monte's scheme (Sapp, Rice) got theirs. Hell, even mediocre players in that scheme got theirs (Jones, Ahanotu, Spires, Wyms).

You don't think that was meant to be teh funny?


DYK, we have a college football forum... http://www.pewterreport.com/forum/index.php?board=5.0

alldaway

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#46 : June 02, 2009, 12:07:57 PM

What Rice did in Zona was amazing, but we can't exclude some factoids either:

*A Hall of Fame shut down CB in Aeneas Williams to increase coverage sacks.
*Retained some of Ryan's blitz heavy schemes
* DT Eric Swann to generate pressure on the inside (From 1996 to 1999 20.5 sacks)




The White Tiger

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#47 : June 02, 2009, 10:41:54 PM

What Rice did in Zona was amazing, but we can't exclude some factoids either:

I agree with your points but I would arrange them in this way...

This:

* DT Eric Swann to generate pressure on the inside (From 1996 to 1999 20.5 sacks)

and this:

*Retained some of Ryan's blitz heavy schemes

Made this look good:

*A Hall of Fame shut down CB in Aeneas Williams to increase coverage sacks.

It remains to be seen if we have the talent up fron to make the rest of it work. I am watching closely.

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#48 : June 03, 2009, 08:55:41 AM

What Rice did in Zona was amazing, but we can't exclude some factoids either:

*A Hall of Fame shut down CB in Aeneas Williams to increase coverage sacks.
*Retained some of Ryan's blitz heavy schemes
* DT Eric Swann to generate pressure on the inside (From 1996 to 1999 20.5 sacks)
At what point does a really good-to-great player have to stop apologizing for having good teammates? I mean Lawrence Taylor may be the greatest defensive player of all time, yet he played with a Pro Bowl NT in Erik Howard, another Pro Bowl NT in Jim Burt, Pro Bowl DE in Leonard Marshall, Pro Bowl OLB in Carl Banks, Pro Bowl ILB in Harry Carson, another Pro Bowl ILB in Pepper Johnson, and Pro Bowl FS in Terry Kinard. He also had a Hall of Fame coach and Hall of Fame defensive coordinator.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

dalbuc

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#49 : June 03, 2009, 09:36:06 AM

At what point does a really good-to-great player have to stop apologizing for having good teammates? I mean Lawrence Taylor may be the greatest defensive player of all time, yet he played with a Pro Bowl NT in Erik Howard, another Pro Bowl NT in Jim Burt, Pro Bowl DE in Leonard Marshall, Pro Bowl OLB in Carl Banks, Pro Bowl ILB in Harry Carson, another Pro Bowl ILB in Pepper Johnson, and Pro Bowl FS in Terry Kinard. He also had a Hall of Fame coach and Hall of Fame defensive coordinator.

Well and since other guys (Wadsworth) don't get good apparently it isn't enough. We also have Jared Allen who makes it look like he was better off with the dross in KC than with the Williams Wall and Antoine Winfield for example. Peppers was "helped" by Mike Rucker but, oddly, when Rucker left he still drops 10+ per year. Same with Rice who dropped 12 and 14 after Sapp left but I guess maybe Dewayne White was pushing guys towards him.

Notice that good WR's get theirs no matter who the QB is (see Housh, Smith, Andre Johnson), good QB's produce w/o great wR's (Brees got 6 games from Colston and lead the league, the WR's for Rivers are no great shakes and among pass rushers Abraham, Peppers, Mario, Howard, Kampmann, and Porter have no help worth mentioning. Great players produce great numbers they don't make excuses.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

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#50 : June 03, 2009, 09:37:32 AM

mario williams, dwight freeney, julius peppers, jared allen before last year, aaron kampmon,  john abraham, as well as countless others do it without inside help. As a matter of fact, almost every good pass rusher I have ever seen has done it by themself. I haven't seen very many good pass rushers that had good inside help, its actually pretty rare.

rowdie

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#51 : June 03, 2009, 02:41:01 PM

Everyone is missing Sapp.

DYK, we have a college football forum... http://www.pewterreport.com/forum/index.php?board=5.0

Boid Fink

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#52 : June 03, 2009, 11:13:03 PM

Everyone is missing Sapp.
Well...yeah.


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#53 : June 04, 2009, 02:31:39 PM

thats why we fought, i won, he's trying again.

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#54 : June 05, 2009, 03:54:34 AM

Bucs' Sacks:

Year    Sacks   Rank
2002   43        6th
2003   36        13th
2004   45         3rd
2005   36        18th
2006   25        30th
2007   33        16th
2008   29        20th

Things worth noting:

Sapp left after the 2003 season. The next year our sack total went up by 9 and we had our highest ranking at 3rd.

Rice was still on the team in 2006 when we ranked 30th with only 25 sacks, though he became injured and was placed on IR during that season.

Marinelli left after the 2005 season. Face it....Rod Marinelli made a BIG difference when he was here, regardless of who was on the d-line.

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#55 : June 05, 2009, 07:42:50 AM

I don't think Adams is all that fast, and he comes off the line straight up, with no lower body leverage. Rice came off the line with his upper body down and leaning toward the QB with momentum.

Proper coaching might correct this, but I think he's just another bust.

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#56 : June 05, 2009, 09:38:31 AM

I don't think Adams is all that fast, and he comes off the line straight up, with no lower body leverage. Rice came off the line with his upper body down and leaning toward the QB with momentum.
That's the thing, people say he's all speed, but there are lots of defensive ends who are all speed and drop 10+ sacks. Adams' problem is he plays like he is all speed but he isn't.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

dalbuc

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#57 : June 05, 2009, 11:02:30 AM

That's the thing, people say he's all speed, but there are lots of defensive ends who are all speed and drop 10+ sacks. Adams' problem is he plays like he is all speed but he isn't.

My concern as well. I don't think he consistently scares guys with his speed and without that there's no way to set up all the other moves you need to be a top-end rusher.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

rowdie

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#58 : June 05, 2009, 11:36:30 AM

Buddy has a lot of work to do. 

Frig'n Clemson guys, ugh.

DYK, we have a college football forum... http://www.pewterreport.com/forum/index.php?board=5.0

The White Tiger

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#59 : June 05, 2009, 02:45:01 PM

Bucs' Sacks:

Year    Sacks   Rank
2002   43        6th
2003   36        13th
2004   45         3rd
2005   36        18th
2006   25        30th
2007   33        16th
2008   29        20th

Things worth noting:

Sapp left after the 2003 season. The next year our sack total went up by 9 and we had our highest ranking at 3rd.

Rice was still on the team in 2006 when we ranked 30th with only 25 sacks, though he became injured and was placed on IR during that season.

Marinelli left after the 2005 season. Face it....Rod Marinelli made a BIG difference when he was here, regardless of who was on the d-line.

It kind of legitimizes the theory that while sacks are important, it isn't the focus of a defense. During this time we saw opponents shift away from perimeter runs - and go straight up the gut. We could not get the proper type of pressure and this was enough to neutralize cover-2, hence the shift to more cover-3, etc., This fundamentally changed our defense - while one or two players turned in increased sack totals (I wonder how many were coverage sacks) our defense fell out of the top 10 and was never really as effective.

Teams like Carolina, Atlanta, and Oakland decimated us with a power running game right up the gut - and our defensive philosophy had no answer (either with personnel or scheme) for this - the new defensive philosophy would seem to at least be designed for this scenario.

In terms of the secondary man seems to be a better fit with the type of line play we want (run massive stuffers in the center, edge rushers). The Linebackers are still mobile and required to drop into coverage as often as they will fill against the run. Secondary should provide coverage sacks or pressure INT's.

It seems to be turnover football - which is what Dungy's system was predicated on - we just get there a different way. This new "way" also seems to fit our personnel - which should cut transition time down. I'm not sure it all will work - but it seems that if it does it won't require us to be a bad team that loses more than it wins - for more than 1 year.

Depends how quickly each side takes to the changes. O-line and D-line are what I'll be watching.

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