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#75 : June 29, 2009, 11:32:19 PM

I wll give it a rest. Just an opinion we disagree on. I think Booger was a bum and I think Key was a bum. Just tought we were better this year at those two spots.
Thought our TEs were old and slow back then....... Just made point bucs have upgraded some positions since 2002. Just no starpower like Sapp, Lynch and Rice in his prime. Offensive line is miles ahead of the one in 2002 though.

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#76 : June 30, 2009, 12:10:49 AM

I don't know that I would include Buddy Ryan. �
If I was to ask the best overall defensive Coach it would have to be Buddy Ryan...His defenses would kill a team...OBD
I'm going to disagree. While the Bears were indeed dominant with his 46 defense, they were also blessed with some of the league's most talented defenders. But the big thing is, what happened after that one SB win? It took a year or two before teams figured out that quick short passes, especially slants, could counteract that Cover 1, pressure defense. Then, rather than come up with a plan to counter what opposing offenses were doing, Ryan stubbornly stuck with that same exact defense. To me that lack of adaptability and refusal to come up with a plan to respond to what opponents were doing would exclude him from my list of best defensive coaches.

If that is true then why were his defenses ranked so high in Philly and Arizona after he left the Bears?
After leaving Chicago the Bears still ranked as the NFL's #1 defense in '86; the Eagles were #17.
In '87 the Bears were #4 while the Eagles dropped to #25.
In '88 the Eagles moved up to #14 - still far behind the Bears, who were #1.
In '89 the Bears bottomed out at #20 and the Eagles defense passed them, moving up to #5.
Then in '90 the Bears D was ahead again at #9; the Eagles were #12.

At that point the Buddy Ryan experiment in Philadelphis was over.

The Cardinals were the #7 NFL defense in '93, the year Ryan sucker punched Kevin Gilbride while with Houston.
With Ryan as their HC in '94 they did move up three spots to #4, but obviously they were already talented before he got there.
Then the very next year, in '95 they ranked dead last in the NFL on defense.
That by itself should put an end to any idea that "his defenses were ranked so highly ... in Arizona"; that's revisionist history.

How does a 'Top-3-ever DC' rank last in defense, even if it was for only one year?

To me it all adds up to the success being about the players (and GM) - and not Buddy Ryan.


benchwarmer69

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#77 : June 30, 2009, 01:12:43 AM

1. Madden - If it weren't for him none of us would have anything to do during offseason. I loved his commentating also, even if it was rather redundant.
2. Parcells - An old guy who pretty much speaks his mind, and is a pretty-good talent evaluator.
3. M. Kiffin - One of the brightest defensive masterminds ever, and a guy who loved fishing for INT's.

*Runner-ups - Don Shula, Tom Landry, Mike Holmgren


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#78 : June 30, 2009, 01:14:30 AM

take in account the players around booger, dexter and kelly. That doesn't count? You have no clue. You think Buchanon's numbers would of been different with Sapp and Rice? How did Kelly do after he left? awful. How did Booger do after he left? Awful. How did Dilger do after he left? Finished. Dudley? Done. Keyshawn? Awful. Dexter? Awful. Next?

Good points all...

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#79 : June 30, 2009, 07:10:44 AM

I don't know that I would include Buddy Ryan. �
If I was to ask the best overall defensive Coach it would have to be Buddy Ryan...His defenses would kill a team...OBD
I'm going to disagree. While the Bears were indeed dominant with his 46 defense, they were also blessed with some of the league's most talented defenders. But the big thing is, what happened after that one SB win? It took a year or two before teams figured out that quick short passes, especially slants, could counteract that Cover 1, pressure defense. Then, rather than come up with a plan to counter what opposing offenses were doing, Ryan stubbornly stuck with that same exact defense. To me that lack of adaptability and refusal to come up with a plan to respond to what opponents were doing would exclude him from my list of best defensive coaches.

If that is true then why were his defenses ranked so high in Philly and Arizona after he left the Bears?
After leaving Chicago the Bears still ranked as the NFL's #1 defense in '86; the Eagles were #17.
In '87 the Bears were #4 while the Eagles dropped to #25.
In '88 the Eagles moved up to #14 - still far behind the Bears, who were #1.
In '89 the Bears bottomed out at #20 and the Eagles defense passed them, moving up to #5.
Then in '90 the Bears D was ahead again at #9; the Eagles were #12.

At that point the Buddy Ryan experiment in Philadelphis was over.

The Cardinals were the #7 NFL defense in '93, the year Ryan sucker punched Kevin Gilbride while with Houston.
With Ryan as their HC in '94 they did move up three spots to #4, but obviously they were already talented before he got there.
Then the very next year, in '95 they ranked dead last in the NFL on defense.
That by itself should put an end to any idea that "his defenses were ranked so highly ... in Arizona"; that's revisionist history.

How does a 'Top-3-ever DC' rank last in defense, even if it was for only one year?

To me it all adds up to the success being about the players (and GM) - and not Buddy Ryan.



Damn, Hugh, did Buddy Ryan sucker punch you once as well? Don't forget, he was the defensive coordinator of Minnesota when their D was known as "The Purple People Eaters" and dominated the NFL. I never said Ryan was a good head coach. In fact, he sucked at it because of his surly disposition. But, as a d-coordinator, he always produced teams that had a swagger and dominated. Reggie White always swore by the guy.



ONEBIGDADDY

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#80 : June 30, 2009, 08:47:19 AM

I don't know that I would include Buddy Ryan. �
If I was to ask the best overall defensive Coach it would have to be Buddy Ryan...His defenses would kill a team...OBD
I'm going to disagree. While the Bears were indeed dominant with his 46 defense, they were also blessed with some of the league's most talented defenders. But the big thing is, what happened after that one SB win? It took a year or two before teams figured out that quick short passes, especially slants, could counteract that Cover 1, pressure defense. Then, rather than come up with a plan to counter what opposing offenses were doing, Ryan stubbornly stuck with that same exact defense. To me that lack of adaptability and refusal to come up with a plan to respond to what opponents were doing would exclude him from my list of best defensive coaches.

If that is true then why were his defenses ranked so high in Philly and Arizona after he left the Bears?
After leaving Chicago the Bears still ranked as the NFL's #1 defense in '86; the Eagles were #17.
In '87 the Bears were #4 while the Eagles dropped to #25.
In '88 the Eagles moved up to #14 - still far behind the Bears, who were #1.
In '89 the Bears bottomed out at #20 and the Eagles defense passed them, moving up to #5.
Then in '90 the Bears D was ahead again at #9; the Eagles were #12.

At that point the Buddy Ryan experiment in Philadelphis was over.

The Cardinals were the #7 NFL defense in '93, the year Ryan sucker punched Kevin Gilbride while with Houston.
With Ryan as their HC in '94 they did move up three spots to #4, but obviously they were already talented before he got there.
Then the very next year, in '95 they ranked dead last in the NFL on defense.
That by itself should put an end to any idea that "his defenses were ranked so highly ... in Arizona"; that's revisionist history.

How does a 'Top-3-ever DC' rank last in defense, even if it was for only one year?

To me it all adds up to the success being about the players (and GM) - and not Buddy Ryan.



Damn, Hugh, did Buddy Ryan sucker punch you once as well? Don't forget, he was the defensive coordinator of Minnesota when their D was known as "The Purple People Eaters" and dominated the NFL. I never said Ryan was a good head coach. In fact, he sucked at it because of his surly disposition. But, as a d-coordinator, he always produced teams that had a swagger and dominated. Reggie White always swore by the guy.


I have to agree...Buddy Ryan came in and did with talent that others couldn't do...Some of this is dealing with personel and what is your reach with in a team. Buddy Ryan has earned his right to be named as a Great Defensive Co ordinator...Head Coach? No...OBD


HughC

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#81 : June 30, 2009, 02:50:02 PM

I don't know that I would include Buddy Ryan. �
If I was to ask the best overall defensive Coach it would have to be Buddy Ryan...His defenses would kill a team...OBD
I'm going to disagree. While the Bears were indeed dominant with his 46 defense, they were also blessed with some of the league's most talented defenders. But the big thing is, what happened after that one SB win? It took a year or two before teams figured out that quick short passes, especially slants, could counteract that Cover 1, pressure defense. Then, rather than come up with a plan to counter what opposing offenses were doing, Ryan stubbornly stuck with that same exact defense. To me that lack of adaptability and refusal to come up with a plan to respond to what opponents were doing would exclude him from my list of best defensive coaches.

If that is true then why were his defenses ranked so high in Philly and Arizona after he left the Bears?
After leaving Chicago the Bears still ranked as the NFL's #1 defense in '86; the Eagles were #17.
In '87 the Bears were #4 while the Eagles dropped to #25.
In '88 the Eagles moved up to #14 - still far behind the Bears, who were #1.
In '89 the Bears bottomed out at #20 and the Eagles defense passed them, moving up to #5.
Then in '90 the Bears D was ahead again at #9; the Eagles were #12.

At that point the Buddy Ryan experiment in Philadelphis was over.

The Cardinals were the #7 NFL defense in '93, the year Ryan sucker punched Kevin Gilbride while with Houston.
With Ryan as their HC in '94 they did move up three spots to #4, but obviously they were already talented before he got there.
Then the very next year, in '95 they ranked dead last in the NFL on defense.
That by itself should put an end to any idea that "his defenses were ranked so highly ... in Arizona"; that's revisionist history.

How does a 'Top-3-ever DC' rank last in defense, even if it was for only one year?

To me it all adds up to the success being about the players (and GM) - and not Buddy Ryan.



Damn, Hugh, did Buddy Ryan sucker punch you once as well? Don't forget, he was the defensive coordinator of Minnesota when their D was known as "The Purple People Eaters" and dominated the NFL. I never said Ryan was a good head coach. In fact, he sucked at it because of his surly disposition. But, as a d-coordinator, he always produced teams that had a swagger and dominated. Reggie White always swore by the guy.


I have to agree...Buddy Ryan came in and did with talent that others couldn't do...Some of this is dealing with personel and what is your reach with in a team. Buddy Ryan has earned his right to be named as a Great Defensive Co ordinator...Head Coach? No...OBD
Well, I guess we agree to disagree.  I saw the comment about his defenses being ranked so highly in Philadelphia and Arizona, and I pointed out where those defenses ranked: 25th, 14th, 5th, 12th, 7th and 30th; those numbers looks quite ordinary and very middle of the pack to me.  Perhaps his defenses in Philly and Arizona had swagger, but they didn't dominate.  I think his legend and reputation is a whole lot bigger than his actual accomplishments.

As for his time as the DC in Minnesota, he took over a defense that was ranked 3rd each of the two previous seasons, and 2nd the year before that.  While Ryan was there they ranked 2nd and then slipped to #13.  If anything the defense regressed while he was there.  And as I commented earlier, the Bears defense didn't seem to miss him once he left.

Bottom line is that despite his reputation as a brilliant DC, I don't see either where teams made any noticeable improvements with his presence other than in Chicago, and I don't see where any teams missed him when he left.  His one claim to fame is installing the 46 defense in Chicago and being the DC of one of the greatest, if not the greatest, defense in any single season.  Not to minimize that 85 Bears team, but I wouldn't refer to somebody as greatest of all time based on just a single season.

If Ryan had come up with another productive defensive scheme once opposing offenses knew how to deal with the 46 defense, I would feel differently.  If he had gone to another team and turned its defense around, I would feel differently.  If the Bears fell apart without him, I would feel differently.  But none of those things happened, so in my opinion Ryan does not merit consideration as one of the best DCs in NFL history.

My Top 3 DCs:
1. Tom Landry - invented the 4-3
2. Bill Belichick - revolutionized defenses with his use of Lawrence Taylor
3. **CENSORED** LeBeau - created the zone blitz; turned around the Benglas defense and also improved the Steeler D


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#82 : June 30, 2009, 05:15:41 PM

Tied for 1st:  Jon Gruden and Tony Dungy.  I've always loved Gruden's passion, his fire, his intensity.  He LOVES football and is passionate about coaching.  He is one of my coaching role models.  I love Dungy's ability to be calm under pressure, as well as his ability to form close relationships with his players. He's big on technique, and preaches the "little things" that result in wins.  He is another of my role models.  I try to emulate the best of both coaches in my own coaching style.

2. Bill Walsh.  Inventor of my favorite offense, and winner of 4 Super Bowls.  Under him, the Niners were the most entertaining team to watch in all of sports.

3.  Bill Bellicheck.  You can't argue with success.  And Bill's done it.  His spread offense is to the game what Bill Walsh's WCO was back in the day.  He is a brilliant coach and strategist, even if he does have the media personality of a rock.


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