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#30 : July 03, 2009, 01:20:35 PM

No No No,,,,,,Win now.  That's the NFL.  Nobody wanted to give Gruden time to retool.  They wanted wins.
Brian? Joel? How do you know who was giving directives to Gruden?

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#31 : July 03, 2009, 02:05:23 PM

So that crystal clear plan is what again?

really? �you sound like a jilted schoolgirl. �the plan IS to build through the draft. �most every team in the league has that plan. �but to completely avoid an upgrade to the team because you have your blinders on and are set in stone is asinine. � So building through the draft is the plan - and sending picks to the browns for a guy who plays in a position the buccs had talent at - is your idea of building through the draft?  Did ya miss the 2 round pick this year? - and before I have too much fun with your posting ineptitude please confirm you want to begin the name calling and labeling.


i love it how because some fans dont like the direction the owners have set that they expect the impossible. �they want to know the exact details of what is going on at OBP and for heaven's sake it better not deviate.

the team drafted a QB for the future, and surrounded him with options for the present. �the team has acquired a couple of hard nosed runners to pound the ball, building off the previous regimes work. �

Not part of the debate - would note one runner - and as FRG noted you can't win if you don't play - winning would have been Haynesworth, Cutler, or even the LB that returned to NO.  This wasn't even playing when you lose the top three moves that were purportedly made

the team did made a play for a couple of FA's, neither of which are make or break. �we signed a dynamic TE, who realistically will be used as more of a receiver. �we added pieces to our DL through the draft. �and im pretty sure we will extend ruud. 

Surely you aren't saying Haynesworth wouldn't make or break - and surely you realize extending Winslow's contract is making problems - and surely you know you could have actually gotten a wide receiver for the same cost

seriously, while i dont reside at OBP, ask me a realistic question about the team's plan and i can probably give you a good answer.

Seriously - not yet - right now for a fairly objective fan I see them reaching around their collective asses to get to their elbows

So - for now I hope some of the moves bear fruit - that the two dlinemen that were drafted can help the Dline, that Peterson or Moore will suddenly get better - that someone steps up and plays qb effectively so the talent on that side of the ball is not wasted, that Ruud gets extended so his head it right, that a safety can indeed play LB, and that someone else steps up (betting on Black) to fill the other side.  But there is a lot of hopeful, and not much in concrete without Dline improvement getting done in the off season.

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

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#32 : July 03, 2009, 02:08:42 PM

I think the plan is to build through youth and primarily from the draft.

Want to see the model for the plan?  Look at the Pittsburgh Steelers.

Tomlin and Morris are best buds.  Tomlin spoke about being "Physical and Violent" when he took over the Steelers.

Check Morris' words (and Dominik's) and you'll see the similarities.

HM

Tomlin waked into a Super Bowl ready team, he didn't build anything, i get that Morris is a poor mans Tomlin, but when you break it down we have a position coach and a pro scout running the tean, if you play the odds its not a good bet and chances for success are limited IMO

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#33 : July 03, 2009, 02:11:39 PM

The Glazers plan is to charge the 2nd or 3rd most for tickets in the league and spend the least for talent.
No one can dispute that is what they have done. It's a fact they have done that.



The BUCS are gonna surprise people this year!

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#34 : July 03, 2009, 02:45:44 PM

Nobody wanted to give Gruden time to retool.

Just curious, how much time did he need?


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#35 : July 03, 2009, 02:53:14 PM

i did not start any name calling, and i apologize if you took offense to the schoolgirl reference.  but thats the way i see it when our fans dont like it that we upgraded our team.  KW2 is head and shoulders better than any TE we had, and he also plays the position more like a receiver.   he is a significant upgrade imo.

as for the rest of your post, i had a tough time reading it, especially considering you think my posts are inept.  i already mentioned that i dont believe that the team HAS to only build through the draft.  they WANT to build through the draft, but if a great player is available, the team has the ability to make a move.  wanting to build the team through the draft is not a concrete issue.

i dont think haynesworth is make or break.  the guy has never won anything.  i think vilma is a nice piece, but wasnt necessary.  i think both guys were longshots and we put our hat in the ring, nothing more nothing less.  i think ruuds contract is a minor issue, i do believe they will get it worked out.  and im not sure what it means to get a WR for the same cost, but i think clayton will be effective given the opportunity.

\"Lets put the O back in Country\"

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#36 : July 03, 2009, 03:30:44 PM

I think they are improving the team - haphazardly - folks keep talking about the plan - I don't see it - at all.  I see needs - I see signings and draft picks - some match - some make little sense.

The buccs did not go into the offseason needing a TE - and that is one of the two big moves.  Cost two picks -

The buccs did need to get a young qb - this year or next.  Frankly - this kid might be it, but from my standpoint better choices will be there next year - wondering

Buccs need two DTs and at least one DE. - Now - maybe Moore or Peterson step up, maybe the kid from Texas steps up.  The need could have been addressed with proven FAs - one of which ended up in NY - Bernard..

Buccs need (based on releases) two LBs - maybe with the FA, and maybe with backups stepping up, and maybe not - not a time to have a weak Dline

Buccs need a CB and a safety - letting Pbuc walk - well is is all on Morris and Dominick - again a bad time to have a weak Dline

But to say one has a plan and it is to build through the draft - and watching picks being traded for a player who wasn't filling a need is hard to fit into the building for the future gig.  And while hoping Freeman comes through - and watching next year's qb draft - well maybe.  The Dline desperately needed to be upgraded with some proven talent - letting Haye go was odd, and not signing a proved DT was odder. 

Sorry about disjointed posting - getting interrupted on my end - my bad.

And saying the FO has money - and the team will reward picks who prove themselves successful - and watching AB, Ruud and Penn not getting contracts - well it is at best odd.

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

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#37 : July 03, 2009, 04:34:14 PM

it sounds to me like you dont agree with the way that dominik is going about the offseason, not so much as that there is no plan.  from what you wrote, your issue is more with the choices that the FO has made, rather than not having a plan.  and then there are also many different plans that could be discussed...glazers - dominiks - morris'.

i think a major issue is that the FO/coaches seem to trust the players on the roster.  many of the fans dont have this trust because they only know what they have seen, and the norm in tampa is that young defenders arent usually used.

we didnt need a TE with the roster we had.  but we got a heckuva player.  and trading smith regained one of those lost picks.

the bucs were sold on a QB, they didnt want to wait.  we can all debate on if he was the right choice, but i dont see how that goes against a plan.

maybe from what morris and the rest of the staff has seen, they believe that moore, peterson, and miller will step in up in our new D.  the fact we didnt go after more DT's in FA says to me that we like the guys we already have.  

i dont see where we need 2 LB's...we released 2, we signed 2 and converted a S.  we have talent on our roster now that morris and staff want to get on the field.

the bucs might need a CB or safety.  but again, we had a chance to go after them and we didnt.  that says to me we like what we have on roster.  we will have growing pains with 2 young guys and an older vet, but all teams suffer in the air from time to time.

as for not following a set in stone plan, we traded a pick for a young proven player.  a young proven player who upgrades our team.  why get stuck on the idea that the Bucs can ONLY draft college guys?

the DL didnt (imo) need to be upgraded with proven talent.  for 12 weeks last year they were a top 5 unit.  they got banged up and turned mentally weak the last month.  but the first 3 months they were jam up.

as for extensions, AB had a good year in an offense where the #1 WR always puts up numbers.  he has had a checkered past.  it probably is most sensible to franchise him and see if he really is worth the big money he wants.  i think ruud will get his contract.  and penn, while serviceable, probably shouldnt be paid a kings ransom.  just his offseason antics alone show he might not be worth it.

i think it comes down to the simple fact that there is no concrete blueprint in professional sports.  its a dynamic world.


\"Lets put the O back in Country\"

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#38 : July 03, 2009, 04:24:20 PM

However, based on some of the comments in this thread, would someone be kind enough to send me a copy of  the plan from any of the other 31 teams that you have seen.
Even with my heavy reading of this and many national sites, I have yet to see one in my 70+ years of following the NFL.

Some of you are just unreal. Sarcasm just doesn't cover that fact that there is no such published plan by ANY team in the NFL and never has been.  Doubt there ever will be. But you can continue with your snide remarks if it will make you feel better.

There's no plan but you should see a direction. The notion that the reason we are the lowest spending team (which is what this "plan" comment was about) is part of a plan over the last 5 years is laughable. That's not an answer for what went wrong here. There appears to be some sort of a direction now so there might be signs of a plan in the last 6 months but that, again, doesn't answer the not-spending cash thing.


All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.
If you think Manziel is the best QB in this draft I can safely assume you are an idiot and will treat you as such.

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#39 : July 03, 2009, 04:34:51 PM

I think they are improving the team - haphazardly - folks keep talking about the plan - I don't see it - at all.  I see needs - I see signings and draft picks - some match - some make little sense.

The buccs did not go into the offseason needing a TE - and that is one of the two big moves.  Cost two picks -

The buccs did need to get a young qb - this year or next.  Frankly - this kid might be it, but from my standpoint better choices will be there next year - wondering

Buccs need two DTs and at least one DE. - Now - maybe Moore or Peterson step up, maybe the kid from Texas steps up.  The need could have been addressed with proven FAs - one of which ended up in NY - Bernard..

Buccs need (based on releases) two LBs - maybe with the FA, and maybe with backups stepping up, and maybe not - not a time to have a weak Dline

Buccs need a CB and a safety - letting Pbuc walk - well is is all on Morris and Dominick - again a bad time to have a weak Dline

But to say one has a plan and it is to build through the draft - and watching picks being traded for a player who wasn't filling a need is hard to fit into the building for the future gig.  And while hoping Freeman comes through - and watching next year's qb draft - well maybe.  The Dline desperately needed to be upgraded with some proven talent - letting Haye go was odd, and not signing a proved DT was odder.  

Sorry about disjointed posting - getting interrupted on my end - my bad.

And saying the FO has money - and the team will reward picks who prove themselves successful - and watching AB, Ruud and Penn not getting contracts - well it is at best odd.

The plan seems clear to me.  I guess I have more faith  ;-)

As for Rocky at DT, he's a gap-shooter and not a great fit for this scheme.  He's a much better fit for Monte's scheme, and GruAllen should have picked him up a few years back last time he was available.  I think Miller will be a great fit at DT for Bates' D.


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#40 : July 03, 2009, 04:43:13 PM

Rocky Bernard is 30 years old and won't even be starting for the Giants. He's going to be their nickel inside rusher. We're supposed to believe the front office dropped the ball not signing him?

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#41 : July 03, 2009, 04:45:30 PM

Rocky Bernard is 30 years old and won't even be starting for the Giants. He's going to be their nickel inside rusher. We're supposed to believe the front office dropped the ball not signing him?
He could have been OUR nickel DT, when the job of the front four is too shoot gaps, to hit quarterbacks...

The "plan" is obvious.  The Bucs are the stepchild for the Glazers.  Loved, sure.  As much as ManU(re), perhaps not.



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#42 : July 03, 2009, 04:47:22 PM

it sounds to me like you dont agree with the way that dominik is going about the offseason, not so much as that there is no plan. �from what you wrote, your issue is more with the choices that the FO has made, rather than not having a plan. �and then there are also many different plans that could be discussed...glazers - dominiks - morris'.

i think a major issue is that the FO/coaches seem to trust the players on the roster. �many of the fans dont have this trust because they only know what they have seen, and the norm in tampa is that young defenders arent usually used.

we didnt need a TE with the roster we had. �but we got a heckuva player. �and trading smith regained one of those lost picks.

the bucs were sold on a QB, they didnt want to wait. �we can all debate on if he was the right choice, but i dont see how that goes against a plan.

maybe from what morris and the rest of the staff has seen, they believe that moore, peterson, and miller will step in up in our new D. �the fact we didnt go after more DT's in FA says to me that we like the guys we already have. �

i dont see where we need 2 LB's...we released 2, we signed 2 and converted a S. �we have talent on our roster now that morris and staff want to get on the field.

the bucs might need a CB or safety. �but again, we had a chance to go after them and we didnt. �that says to me we like what we have on roster. �we will have growing pains with 2 young guys and an older vet, but all teams suffer in the air from time to time.

as for not following a set in stone plan, we traded a pick for a young proven player. �a young proven player who upgrades our team. �why get stuck on the idea that the Bucs can ONLY draft college guys?

the DL didnt (imo) need to be upgraded with proven talent. �for 12 weeks last year they were a top 5 unit. �they got banged up and turned mentally weak the last month. �but the first 3 months they were jam up.

as for extensions, AB had a good year in an offense where the #1 WR always puts up numbers. �he has had a checkered past. �it probably is most sensible to franchise him and see if he really is worth the big money he wants. �i think ruud will get his contract. �and penn, while serviceable, probably shouldnt be paid a kings ransom. �just his offseason antics alone show he might not be worth it.

i think it comes down to the simple fact that there is no concrete blueprint in professional sports. �its a dynamic world.



I like that you used the word dynamic!  Indeed there is a plan, and to simplify what the Bucs FO is attempting to do it comes down to two main objectives: 1.) Establish what the Bucs do have on the roster by playing as many young players as possible 2.) Prepare Freeman to take over in year 2/3

Is LB a weakness?  I do not know and neither does the FO which is why Black/Hayward/Hayes will have a shot, and you have Crowell which is a nice addition as well.

Is CB a weakness?  It appears on paper they are from an experience standpoint.  But all of them can play man to man exceptionally well, and all are lightning quick.  I mean Ronde Barber is probably the "slowest" CB on the current roster.

Is DT a weakness?  No one knows given the assignments, and where they lineup have changed.  




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#43 : July 03, 2009, 04:47:45 PM

Rocky Bernard is 30 years old and won't even be starting for the Giants. He's going to be their nickel inside rusher. We're supposed to believe the front office dropped the ball not signing him?
He could have been OUR nickel DT, when the job of the front four is too shoot gaps, to hit quarterbacks...

The "plan" is obvious.  The Bucs are the stepchild for the Glazers.  Loved, sure.  As much as ManU(re), perhaps not.




That's not the DTs' job in Bates' scheme


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#44 : July 03, 2009, 04:54:16 PM

Rocky Bernard is 30 years old and won't even be starting for the Giants. He's going to be their nickel inside rusher. We're supposed to believe the front office dropped the ball not signing him?
He could have been OUR nickel DT, when the job of the front four is too shoot gaps, to hit quarterbacks...

The "plan" is obvious.  The Bucs are the stepchild for the Glazers.  Loved, sure.  As much as ManU(re), perhaps not.
When you're a team short on talent, the last thing you need to do is hand out $16 million contracts to role players. That's what the Lions did signing all the Bucs' old back up players. That worked well. You're supposed to shoot for the fences finding starters, and if they're not good enough they become your role players.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.
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