Do you believe in "the Devil"?

[The White Tiger]

So how do you come by an understanding that their may be a deity? How do you not dismiss it outright?

Do you know what pointed you to this knowledge?

Now understand - I'm not making fun of you - but how can you have just enough faith to conceive of a God - but not enough to believe completely?

Have you ever asked yourself that if one such as I cannot present an imaginary deity as an absolute authority - how do you come by the knowledge that there may be?

As I said - it is a question of trust. Not IF you have it (clearly you have trust to believe in some authority) - no the question is rather - where you place your trust.

Was it that you can observe that an order exists? Have you seen design in nature that compels you to know something that doesn't exactly square with what is real...?

Still dancing, I see. If you cannot prove that your god is real, why should I grant him any credibility? And if his moral code is absolute, why is it ever changing and negotiable?

Can you answer these questions? Can you even attempt it?

[The White Tiger]

Look, you really have produced no proof that God does not exist. If he does, then that proves the concept of truth. If he does not EVERYTHING is arbitrary.

I don't think you've really ever sat down and thought this through. What does a lack of truth mean if not arbitrary, local truth?

If arbitrary, irrational, local truth is in fact real - then it is true - that makes it logically inconsistent. Two things cannot be true at the same time - something cannot be true, while also NOT being true.

You want me to believe that you think each religion has as much validity as the next - that this makes it right for everyone - that's called local truth. The problem with that is - most religions accept UNIVERSAL truth. They wouldn't accept your local truth anymore than Christians - as most think theirs is THE truth.

Since you don't like any religion (while no doubt remaining open to all of them) I'm not so sure you would like the reality of that world any better.

If there is no truth then nothing is "self-evident" this is the moral ground that leftists have used to deconstruct our society and culture. Not that there's anythng wrong with that...

If truth is universal - then rights are self-evident.

Oh, and that would kind of morally obligate us to make some decision...wouldn't it?

...but so long as we justify this with a different type of truth we can suspend judgment?

[John Galt?]

There is no mention of redemption, of reward, of receiving a better life in this world or the next, just false assumptions and fallacies that hurt the credibility of the speaker. If you want to debate evolution or anything else, fine. But don't say you are debating it because "God inspired you to" or that it is your "Christian duty".

In other words, stay on the path and don't tilt at windmills.

Heck, the message of redemption, reward and a better life in this world or the next is filled with assumptions too.

Assumptions, yes.� All theories and hypothesis start with assumptions. I said false assumptions, that is basing your hypothesis on something you know to be false. We, as mere mortals, don't know and cannot prove whether the redemption, reward, etc. are true or false, just possible, so if we include the caveat "if" they are valid assumptions (i.e. not disproven)� Stating that "because there are no fossils of transitional species" as your beginning assumption, when in fact there are tens of thousands of such fossils, is basing a hypothesis on a false assumption.

JG, you believe in Heaven and Hell? What do you believe happens to us when we die and how do our beliefs in God (or related matters) affect what happens once we're there?

Kinda sorta!

Note: I watch way to much History/Discovery/Science Channel stuff.

that said, the current rage among the Physics crowd is something called m-Theory or Brane theory (as in membrane) which says (according to my limited understanding) that there are 12 (or 13 or maybe more) dimensions and that there are branes (infinite planes) where each dimension is dominate, therefore there are 12¹¹ branes (or maybe 13¹²) and in each one 2 other dimensions are dominant and straight at right angles to the prime dimension and one is curve-linear to the rest (i.e. parabolic) and all the others are all curly qued up into tight coils so that at some point relative to any one the others are at right angles, not all at the same point, but each at some point. Each Brane is a framework for a possible universe or universes. Each brane would have its own set of rules, in ours electromagnetics is a very strong and infinite force while gravity is far less strong but still infinite, and the other two are limited in range, in other branes the weak force might be like EM or gravity here or maybe you could "see" the strong force, but EM is what holds planets in orbit. Then at some point "something" caused two or more of these branes to collide which caused the Big Bang (not the TV show)....ahh what was that "something"?

fast forward 14.5 billion years, and here we mere humans are.  Now "something caused that collision, and those other branes are still out there...now your question about heaven and hell....let that marinate a minute.


So, based on current medical evidence, most of our thoughts, memories, etc. (all the stuff that makes us who we are) are electromagnetic impulses. And Em i,pulses behave a certain way in our brane/universe, but quite differently in other branes/universes.

Now part of m-theory is that gravity is a reverberation of some other force from some other brane, therefore it is possible that some force here (like EM which makes up our thoughts and memories) could reverberate in some other universe. The trick is getting your EM to reverberate to the right brane. One that is EM friendly (Heaven) and not one that disperses EM (hell).

So it is all a question of getting your brain in tune with the right universe, which you can only do if you believe in that universe. Now suppose the "something" that caused those branes to collide 15 billion years ago wants some company and he decides to impart this info on the monkey-boys occupying the 3rd rock from the sun, and he decided to do this by putting part of his essence into some unborn kid from some goat-herders daughter. So this info was transmitted to this carpenter living 2,000 years ago. How does he explain this great revelation to a bunch of illiterate fisherman and goat herders?  He can't (because most of the words necessary haven't been invented yet) so he uses a lot of symbolism and allegory to get the basic ideas across. And he mostly fails (cause goat herders and fisherman don't want to hear that stuff) and is arrested and executed for the crime of making commoners think, those in charge don't want that. The "something" that made the branes bump doesn't want it to end here (and besides, the "something" doesn't experience time the way we do, so he/it saw this coming and told the carpenter about it)

So in m-brane #764, which is ideally set up for EM patterns, the EM patterns of the carpenter show up and the "something which bumped the branes"  says "nice try but you didn't get the message across so I'm sending you back, just tell them "look at me I made so can you" and try to get them over their subconscious guilt, that is what is holding them back." And the carpenter suddenly was back on Earth, looking up his old group and trying to explain to them, you to can go to the better place. Some sort of got it, others didn't, but they were all impressed with the nail wounds and the coming back from the dead thing.

Now here is the key. we need some way to lose that subconscious guilt all of us carry. We all know, subconsciously at least, that we are not perfect, and the guilt of that knowledge will prevent us from getting our thoughts/EM patterns right. So we need some way to remove that subconscious guilt (sin), enter the symbolic sacrifice. See the guilt keeps sending those EM patterns to the wrong brane (one where EM patterns disapate or are twisted in a bad way, aka: hell) so we need some way to remove the guilt of our own imperfection. The symbolic sacrifice does that just dandy, but only if you believe it does.









That aught to freak quite a few out.  

 

I believe you're on to something.  Quick correction---there are 11 dimensions in SuperString/M Theory.

oops, I knew it was more than 10.

 Only four of which are perceivable by human beings.  Attempting to perceive or even contemplate the multi-verse as a whole may the the equivilent of an ant attempting to contemplate the internal combustion engine, but we're trying... Anyway, if any of this religious mumbo jumbo were to have a shot at being somehow real, it would have to be via parallel universes.  Could angels, demons and gods simply be interdimensional travelers?  It, like everything in quantum physics is possible.  

The religion of Quantum Dynamics, I'm in, unless they want money, then I'm out.

But there is a kernel of an idea there. How could 5th century BC goat herders and mercenaries possibly have understood ideas in Quantum physics? So instead they were given Genesis with the thinking that it should hold them over for about 2500 years, by then they'll understand and actually work it out for themselves. (God said that the Jews were the "Chosen People", ever notice how many Physicists are of Jewish descent??? Hmmmm)

If we were to continue down the path, we might ask ourselves another question---are past life memories simply the result of particles in our brain that had passed through the Higgs field and become entangled with particles that contained the information that we mistake as "memory".

I'd even go further and say that some "Prophets" and so called Psychics/future seers/precogs are catching particles traveling backwards from our time perspective. It would explain a lot of deja vu.

Yep, according to Quantum Physics, God is not only possible, he is a matter of probability.

Now what really freaks me out is how a syphilitic opium addict in the 20s figured some of this out. H.P. Lovecraft pretty much invented the idea of "intelligent design" (we are all evolved from alien poop) and the whole multi-verse thing (he had 16 dimensions but come on, we are talking about a failed English Lit student that never studied an hour of physics and is mostly pre-Einstein Relativity).  Given his writings versus the Bible, I sure hope the Christians are right.

[The White Tiger]

ewww...that kinda messes up that whole alien thing...

well unless of course you guys are true believers...

...of course by eliminating the the alien poop theory it actually does make the Bible account more plausible.

[John Galt?]

Still dancing, I see. If you cannot prove that your god is real, why should I grant him any credibility? And if his moral code is absolute, why is it ever changing and negotiable?

Can you answer these questions? Can you even attempt it?

I'd say you are entirely missing the point.

To use an analogy, it is like a job application.

If you look at the application and then take it to the HR person and say "how do I know this is the right application? How do I know this will get me a job? If you can't prove this is the right form, I'm not filling it out." Then you will absolutely certainly not get the job.

But if you believe the HR person, and fill out the application truthfully and to the best of your ability (don't lie it will be verified.) then you will get an interview, and then it is up to you and your knowledge and experience to go further.  

[John Galt?]

ewww...that kinda messes up that whole alien thing...

well unless of course you guys are true believers...

...of course by eliminating the the alien poop theory it actually does make the Bible account more plausible.

did you miss the "syphilitic opium addict" part? 

Anyway, it is just freaky that some guy in the 20's was writing about intelligent design and multi-dimensions before anyone even understood what Relativity was.

Then again HG Wells and Jules Verne wrote some pretty prophetic stuff.

[The White Tiger]

Yes I did see that - and I'd gladly add others to the list - beginning with Nostradamus, Mother Shipton and Edgar Caycey...I don't think they are prophets of God - but I've discussed that theory of mine in other threads...

suffice to say that just because we get some of the message - we're still seeing through a glass darkly.

[GhostRider]

There is no mention of redemption, of reward, of receiving a better life in this world or the next, just false assumptions and fallacies that hurt the credibility of the speaker. If you want to debate evolution or anything else, fine. But don't say you are debating it because "God inspired you to" or that it is your "Christian duty".

In other words, stay on the path and don't tilt at windmills.

Heck, the message of redemption, reward and a better life in this world or the next is filled with assumptions too.

Assumptions, yes.� All theories and hypothesis start with assumptions. I said false assumptions, that is basing your hypothesis on something you know to be false. We, as mere mortals, don't know and cannot prove whether the redemption, reward, etc. are true or false, just possible, so if we include the caveat "if" they are valid assumptions (i.e. not disproven)� Stating that "because there are no fossils of transitional species" as your beginning assumption, when in fact there are tens of thousands of such fossils, is basing a hypothesis on a false assumption.

JG, you believe in Heaven and Hell? What do you believe happens to us when we die and how do our beliefs in God (or related matters) affect what happens once we're there?

Kinda sorta!

Note: I watch way to much History/Discovery/Science Channel stuff.

that said, the current rage among the Physics crowd is something called m-Theory or Brane theory (as in membrane) which says (according to my limited understanding) that there are 12 (or 13 or maybe more) dimensions and that there are branes (infinite planes) where each dimension is dominate, therefore there are 12¹¹ branes (or maybe 13¹²) and in each one 2 other dimensions are dominant and straight at right angles to the prime dimension and one is curve-linear to the rest (i.e. parabolic) and all the others are all curly qued up into tight coils so that at some point relative to any one the others are at right angles, not all at the same point, but each at some point. Each Brane is a framework for a possible universe or universes. Each brane would have its own set of rules, in ours electromagnetics is a very strong and infinite force while gravity is far less strong but still infinite, and the other two are limited in range, in other branes the weak force might be like EM or gravity here or maybe you could "see" the strong force, but EM is what holds planets in orbit. Then at some point "something" caused two or more of these branes to collide which caused the Big Bang (not the TV show)....ahh what was that "something"?

fast forward 14.5 billion years, and here we mere humans are.  Now "something caused that collision, and those other branes are still out there...now your question about heaven and hell....let that marinate a minute.


So, based on current medical evidence, most of our thoughts, memories, etc. (all the stuff that makes us who we are) are electromagnetic impulses. And Em i,pulses behave a certain way in our brane/universe, but quite differently in other branes/universes.

Now part of m-theory is that gravity is a reverberation of some other force from some other brane, therefore it is possible that some force here (like EM which makes up our thoughts and memories) could reverberate in some other universe. The trick is getting your EM to reverberate to the right brane. One that is EM friendly (Heaven) and not one that disperses EM (hell).

So it is all a question of getting your brain in tune with the right universe, which you can only do if you believe in that universe. Now suppose the "something" that caused those branes to collide 15 billion years ago wants some company and he decides to impart this info on the monkey-boys occupying the 3rd rock from the sun, and he decided to do this by putting part of his essence into some unborn kid from some goat-herders daughter. So this info was transmitted to this carpenter living 2,000 years ago. How does he explain this great revelation to a bunch of illiterate fisherman and goat herders?  He can't (because most of the words necessary haven't been invented yet) so he uses a lot of symbolism and allegory to get the basic ideas across. And he mostly fails (cause goat herders and fisherman don't want to hear that stuff) and is arrested and executed for the crime of making commoners think, those in charge don't want that. The "something" that made the branes bump doesn't want it to end here (and besides, the "something" doesn't experience time the way we do, so he/it saw this coming and told the carpenter about it)

So in m-brane #764, which is ideally set up for EM patterns, the EM patterns of the carpenter show up and the "something which bumped the branes"  says "nice try but you didn't get the message across so I'm sending you back, just tell them "look at me I made so can you" and try to get them over their subconscious guilt, that is what is holding them back." And the carpenter suddenly was back on Earth, looking up his old group and trying to explain to them, you to can go to the better place. Some sort of got it, others didn't, but they were all impressed with the nail wounds and the coming back from the dead thing.

Now here is the key. we need some way to lose that subconscious guilt all of us carry. We all know, subconsciously at least, that we are not perfect, and the guilt of that knowledge will prevent us from getting our thoughts/EM patterns right. So we need some way to remove that subconscious guilt (sin), enter the symbolic sacrifice. See the guilt keeps sending those EM patterns to the wrong brane (one where EM patterns disapate or are twisted in a bad way, aka: hell) so we need some way to remove the guilt of our own imperfection. The symbolic sacrifice does that just dandy, but only if you believe it does.









That aught to freak quite a few out.   

 

I believe you're on to something.  Quick correction---there are 11 dimensions in SuperString/M Theory.

oops, I knew it was more than 10.

  Only four of which are perceivable by human beings.  Attempting to perceive or even contemplate the multi-verse as a whole may the the equivilent of an ant attempting to contemplate the internal combustion engine, but we're trying... Anyway, if any of this religious mumbo jumbo were to have a shot at being somehow real, it would have to be via parallel universes.  Could angels, demons and gods simply be interdimensional travelers?  It, like everything in quantum physics is possible. 

The religion of Quantum Dynamics, I'm in, unless they want money, then I'm out.

But there is a kernel of an idea there. How could 5th century BC goat herders and mercenaries possibly have understood ideas in Quantum physics? So instead they were given Genesis with the thinking that it should hold them over for about 2500 years, by then they'll understand and actually work it out for themselves. (God said that the Jews were the "Chosen People", ever notice how many Physicists are of Jewish descent??? Hmmmm)

If we were to continue down the path, we might ask ourselves another question---are past life memories simply the result of particles in our brain that had passed through the Higgs field and become entangled with particles that contained the information that we mistake as "memory".

I'd even go further and say that some "Prophets" and so called Psychics/future seers/precogs are catching particles traveling backwards from our time perspective. It would explain a lot of deja vu.

Yep, according to Quantum Physics, God is not only possible, he is a matter of probability.

Now what really freaks me out is how a syphilitic opium addict in the 20s figured some of this out. H.P. Lovecraft pretty much invented the idea of "intelligent design" (we are all evolved from alien poop) and the whole multi-verse thing (he had 16 dimensions but come on, we are talking about a failed English Lit student that never studied an hour of physics and is mostly pre-Einstein Relativity).  Given his writings versus the Bible, I sure hope the Christians are right.

Here's another one for you:  What if what we call "ghosts" are nothing more than the overlap of parallel universes (see, the theory is that all time exists in it's own universe, hence the past, present and future all actually exist simultaneously, rather than chronologically).  Ever notice that most ghost sightings are of apparitions doing the same thing over and over (ie--lady walking down stairs)?  And, we've been able to re-create the "feeling" of the paranormal by increasing the electromagnetic field around the subject, so what if somehow areas of high EMF can cause parellel universes to somehwhat overlap?

[bennor]

This came up at work today and I'd enjoy hearing you guys' thoughts on the matter.  Do you believe in "the Devil"?  (or Great Adversary, or overriding evil force, or what have you).  Do you think this is an active entity trying to undermine God/the forces of good/etc.?  Just a tempter/trickster (Coyote/Loki-ish)?  Bad luck?  Evil incarnate?  Does this being work/influence on an individual scale, cosmic scale, or both?

Just interested in how others view the world/cosmos.  Non-Christian wiewpoints are welcome.

Please no bashing!

Hi! Well if I don't buy in to the whole God thing I think I should pass on the devil aswell, meaning NO I don't think theres an evil entity trying to fight god or some good "forces" Closesest thing to god is the sun, as it brings you everything you need for the day light & warmth, I think the sun is my god

[ufojoe]

Closesest thing to god is the sun, as it brings you everything you need for the day light & warmth, I think the sun is my god

You're not that far off. Check out, "Suns of God" by Archaya S.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen". Revelation 1:7

The sun sometimes comes with clouds and every eye can see "him" at various parts of the day, around the world.

[Skull and Bones]

Does anyone believe in the Egyptian gods?� If not, then it isn't logical to believe in Satan either.

Satan (or "the Devil") comes from the hebrew Sah-Tan, which was how they referred to Set before the time of Abraham.� Set wasn't always considered an evil diety.� At one point in Egyptian culture, Set and Horus were equally praised, yet war between upper and lower egypt (one following Horus and one following Set) led the victors (followers of Horus) to demonize Set.� A demonization that the freed Hebrews took with them to build their own religion.

They're related to the Sun, astronomy and keeping track of time over long periods of time. Cycles...

Horus is where Hours come from.

Set is where SunSet comes from.

Isis is Sirius.

Osiris is Orion.

you forgot Horizon=Horus rising
and you just brought up the original holy trinity(father/Osirus,mother/Isis,son/Horus)
I find it interesting that Osirus equates to Enki and Horus to Marduk and Set to Enlil because that would suggest Set /Enlil would equate to the Judeo/Christian god Jehovha and Enki/Marduk to Samuel/Baal/xian devil.  So in other words, the roles of the good god and the evil god have been reversed.

[GhostRider]

Does anyone believe in the Egyptian gods?� If not, then it isn't logical to believe in Satan either.

Satan (or "the Devil") comes from the hebrew Sah-Tan, which was how they referred to Set before the time of Abraham.� Set wasn't always considered an evil diety.� At one point in Egyptian culture, Set and Horus were equally praised, yet war between upper and lower egypt (one following Horus and one following Set) led the victors (followers of Horus) to demonize Set.� A demonization that the freed Hebrews took with them to build their own religion.

They're related to the Sun, astronomy and keeping track of time over long periods of time. Cycles...

Horus is where Hours come from.

Set is where SunSet comes from.

Isis is Sirius.

Osiris is Orion.

you forgot Horizon=Horus rising
and you just brought up the original holy trinity(father/Osirus,mother/Isis,son/Horus)
I find it interesting that Osirus equates to Enki and Horus to Marduk and Set to Enlil because that would suggest Set /Enlil would equate to the Judeo/Christian god Jehovha and Enki/Marduk to Samuel/Baal/xian devil. So in other words, the roles of the good god and the evil god have been reversed.

Based on the victor's re-write of history/religion.  One of the spoils of war is the demonization of the opponent's beliefs...

[bucsense]

This came up at work today and I'd enjoy hearing you guys' thoughts on the matter. Do you believe in "the Devil"? (or Great Adversary, or overriding evil force, or what have you). Do you think this is an active entity trying to undermine God/the forces of good/etc.? Just a tempter/trickster (Coyote/Loki-ish)? Bad luck? Evil incarnate? Does this being work/influence on an individual scale, cosmic scale, or both?

Just interested in how others view the world/cosmos. Non-Christian wiewpoints are welcome.

Please no bashing!

Hi! Well if I don't buy in to the whole God thing I think I should pass on the devil aswell, meaning NO I don't think theres an evil entity trying to fight god or some good "forces" Closesest thing to god is the sun, as it brings you everything you need for the day light & warmth, I think the sun is my god

Makes sense to me.......but the biblical scholars(LMAO) involved in this discussion (not me) will dismiss your thought process and continue their effort to outdo their adversaries.........

It's pseudo christian machoism at it's best....

[The White Tiger]

Does anyone believe in the Egyptian gods?� If not, then it isn't logical to believe in Satan either.

Satan (or "the Devil") comes from the hebrew Sah-Tan, which was how they referred to Set before the time of Abraham.� Set wasn't always considered an evil diety.� At one point in Egyptian culture, Set and Horus were equally praised, yet war between upper and lower egypt (one following Horus and one following Set) led the victors (followers of Horus) to demonize Set.� A demonization that the freed Hebrews took with them to build their own religion.

They're related to the Sun, astronomy and keeping track of time over long periods of time. Cycles...

Horus is where Hours come from.

Set is where SunSet comes from.

Isis is Sirius.

Osiris is Orion.

you forgot Horizon=Horus rising
and you just brought up the original holy trinity(father/Osirus,mother/Isis,son/Horus)
I find it interesting that Osirus equates to Enki and Horus to Marduk and Set to Enlil because that would suggest Set /Enlil would equate to the Judeo/Christian god Jehovha and Enki/Marduk to Samuel/Baal/xian devil.  So in other words, the roles of the good god and the evil god have been reversed.

Or to the guys who had the original written language...Sanskrit....

Word for Day: Ahaha
Word for Night: Rathra
Word for Day & Night: Ahorathra

Hora is the word abreviation for the study of time, night skies and day time, etc.,.

Hora can also to be taken for the meeting of day and night which happens twice in 24 Hrs.

The place that makes this visible (zone) is the Horizon - the middle of all the points of the sky that human vision can reach.

Now...could all of these be ripping off Sanskrit?

Or was there once a common language that held the context for basic conceptual forms for a good deity and an evil choice?

Hmmm....Christianity has a story from the old testament that holds that civilization developed from a common point and a common language - and based on an act of rebellion by man - language diverges as if into branches on a tree...so now, as we look back, we see the different tribes & cultures.

Judeo-Christian commonality?

I mean what if we all once spoke a similar language? One whose words for God, satan, angels...were once the same?

...what would happen if a civilization existed in which men had a common language and culture - they have been taught about God - but instead of showing respect to God on his terms man sought God on mans terms...man's intentions were rebellious. Their God chose to teach them a lesson by simply confounding their language. It was intended to show exactly who they were dealing with....

This new theory of mine is as plausible as any other claim: This immediate and sudden creation of new language forms would have created unbelievable confusion - but eventually cultures would settle along language lines and it is not hard to imagine then that some original words describing God and satan were kept in as near original pronunciation as their languages would permit.

New culture and new language would change over time, but in order to communicate "God's" goodness (and conversely, satans evil) - it would not be hard to imagine that these near pronunciations of the old language would be used so as to emote the intended authority and emotion, best - using the oldest conceptual forms would translate more of the intended gravity of the words.

...but then again that could just be a lot of babble-ing....?