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alldaway

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#15 : February 12, 2007, 12:00:02 AM

The Bucs are a hybrid coverage defense (not as complex as the Patriots but pretty close).  They do not play a lot of Tampa 2 or cover 2 as many newbies believe *cough* T *cough*.

Monte since taking over 2002 has mixed up the coverages significantly (And as a result has produced amazing results) by adding in his own wrinkles.  That is why any time someone calls this defense a Tampa 2 or a cover 2 it gives me a good chuckle. 




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#16 : February 12, 2007, 07:34:50 AM

I've been following football since the late 1950s and I'm not sure there is any defense or offense that a coach or team can call their own.  Every defense and offense is based on certain fundamentals and teams/coaches tweek those to suit what they want to do.  Many thought it was revolutionary what Bill Walsh was doing wiht the West Coast Offense in San Fran, but if you go back and look at the teams that Paul Brown coached you will see him employing those same concepts.  Many credit Don Coryell with the modern passing game, but it goes back farther than him.

As far as a defense or offense being dead, I believe that they don't die, they get used so much that teams get more accustomed to playing against them so they are more successful either beating the defense or defeating the offense.  One of the things that has been in NEs favor is their use of the 3-4.  Not many teams run it so it has the advantage of playing against teams that don't see it very often.  Now more teams appear to be going in that direction.  If that happens, in a few years the cycle will revolve back to the 4-3 as the base defense again.

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#17 : February 12, 2007, 09:23:28 AM

The only thing that will change this offseason in our defense is the personnel, and what we look at in the players. It seems we are really going to try and get some size along the dline....which is something that's never really been an emphasis before.

T

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#18 : February 12, 2007, 09:35:57 AM

The Bucs are a hybrid coverage defense (not as complex as the Patriots but pretty close).  They do not play a lot of Tampa 2 or cover 2 as many newbies believe *cough* T *cough*.

Monte since taking over 2002 has mixed up the coverages significantly (And as a result has produced amazing results) by adding in his own wrinkles.  That is why any time someone calls this defense a Tampa 2 or a cover 2 it gives me a good chuckle. 





I'm hardly a newbie, Nancy. In 2002,2003 and 2005 I saw alot of differences in the defense that Kiffin ran. But last year this defense was predictable, they rushed the 4 down lineman and had nearly everyone else in coverage, occasionally bringing in extra blitzer.Kiffin, need to change up his looks on Defense, install different fronts, maybe a 3-4 or 5-2 look just to show some different things to opposing teams. I've seen the actual game film of 2006, and alot of the looks the defense showed, were not very creative. I would like to see Kiffin and his staff come up with some different looks to disguise what the defense is gonna do.You can get away with running a very simple defense if you have great perssonel, but the Bucs no longer have great personnel on this defense.


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#19 : February 12, 2007, 09:46:49 AM

Watson,

I think you're right in many respecst the is nothing new in the NFL. The game changes every year with rules changes, personnel, coaching changes etc. which impacts the effectiveness of any given strategy.

Those of you pointing out that Monte mixes his coverages and is rarely in a true cover 2, I get that, but by building the team around their base defensive system they are ultimately limited by personnel as to what looks they can play effectively.

I'd like to see the bucs be a little more versitile personnel wise. If you watch Pitts, New England, Baltimore, San Diego they all have the ability to jump into a 4-3, or a 46 out of their base 3-4 or visa versa and play it for entire games when needed. I don't care if the Bucs base is a 4-3 or a 3-4 etc.... I would just like to see the roster have a bigger linebacker or two, a bigger nose, and definately a stud press, cover corner.

alldaway

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#20 : February 12, 2007, 10:12:54 AM

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I'm hardly a newbie, Nancy. In 2002,2003 and 2005 I saw alot of differences in the defense that Kiffin ran. But last year this defense was predictable, they rushed the 4 down lineman and had nearly everyone else in coverage, occasionally bringing in extra blitzer.Kiffin, need to change up his looks on Defense, install different fronts, maybe a 3-4 or 5-2 look just to show some different things to opposing teams. I've seen the actual game film of 2006, and alot of the looks the defense showed, were not very creative. I would like to see Kiffin and his staff come up with some different looks to disguise what the defense is gonna do.You can get away with running a very simple defense if you have great perssonel, but the Bucs no longer have great personnel on this defense.

Dear newbie,

The Bucs did change their fronts on defense (IF you watched the Bucs play this past regular season).  Not only that but they blitzed a lot more becuase they did not have the personnel to drop seven in coverage.  So much that the Bucs played a lot of man to man and cover 3.  But from your post I can tell you did not watch the Bucs defense play this past regular season.  You were probably busy rewinding Calvin Johnson highlights.

When it comes to discussing defense please for future reference do not respond.

Sincerely friendly newbie/refugee coordinator.  8)

alldaway

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#21 : February 12, 2007, 10:18:36 AM

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I'd like to see the bucs be a little more versitile personnel wise. If you watch Pitts, New England, Baltimore, San Diego they all have the ability to jump into a 4-3, or a 46 out of their base 3-4 or visa versa and play it for entire games when needed. I don't care if the Bucs base is a 4-3 or a 3-4 etc.... I would just like to see the roster have a bigger linebacker or two, a bigger nose, and definately a stud press, cover corner.

Yes that is the advantage of what Pitt, NE, Baltimore, and SD provide on defense with their versaitility being able to change up their defense.  But the disadvantage is that teams can exploit that versaitility.  A bigger LB, bigger nose can be exploited and a stud press cover corners are rare and not as valuable in the past given the changes that have been made to the passing game.

Lets keep it simple.  Which is better?  Rushing four D-lineman and dropping seven in coverage or finding a LB that is big but also athletic enough in coverage (rare) and a stud cover corner (rare)?






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#22 : February 12, 2007, 10:20:45 AM

Quote
I'm hardly a newbie, Nancy. In 2002,2003 and 2005 I saw alot of differences in the defense that Kiffin ran. But last year this defense was predictable, they rushed the 4 down lineman and had nearly everyone else in coverage, occasionally bringing in extra blitzer.Kiffin, need to change up his looks on Defense, install different fronts, maybe a 3-4 or 5-2 look just to show some different things to opposing teams. I've seen the actual game film of 2006, and alot of the looks the defense showed, were not very creative. I would like to see Kiffin and his staff come up with some different looks to disguise what the defense is gonna do.You can get away with running a very simple defense if you have great perssonel, but the Bucs no longer have great personnel on this defense.

Dear newbie,

The Bucs did change their fronts on defense (IF you watched the Bucs play this past regular season). Not only that but they blitzed a lot more becuase they did not have the personnel to drop seven in coverage. So much that the Bucs played a lot of man to man and cover 3. But from your post I can tell you did not watch the Bucs defense play this past regular season. You were probably busy rewinding Calvin Johnson highlights.

When it comes to discussing defense please for future reference do not respond.

Sincerely friendly newbie/refugee coordinator. 8)
I wish you had access to the gamefilm like I do. Yes, the Bucs did play more cover 3 than usual and were more aggressive than the past. But they didn't show those coverages until later in the game, when they seemed to play desperate. Even when the Bucs did blitz their blitzers couldn't even get pressure on the QB.So Nancy, please watch the gamefilm of all 16 games before you think you know what your talking about. How much is that coordinator job paying you? LOL Yeah, I've been here for quite awhile so I am anything but a Newbie. But whatever


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#23 : February 12, 2007, 10:24:06 AM

Newbie aka T,

Access to gamefilm?  Okay Tivo operator I will believe you. :D

If you watched the entire regular season instead of turning to and watching highlights of CJ by mid season you would have noticed the Bucs started to mix in coverages earlier in games and the blitzing was improving.  There was a game where the Bucs defense mainly played man to man coverage but I will leave that mystery for you to figure out.


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#24 : February 12, 2007, 10:32:54 AM

well it was originally called the tampa 2 but then everyone inherited it and so it became the cover two but to bucs fans it could be either one
  Nice thought but incorrect.

The Tampa 2 is dead in my opinion with so many teams playing that style of defense we'll probably never see a dominant defense play the Tampa 2 again. That is why I am hoping the Bucs change up their Defensive style, since everyone knows what to expect from the Buccaneer defense.
  But T has you trumped - he is wronger if that is a term folks can tolerate.

Monte uses several different defenses regularly depending on the team he is facing.  The major issue he has faced with the current group is the front four not getting their gaps filled and getting pressure.  The main portion of that problem has been DT.

It is personnel - no scheme.  Sorry T, jmvho

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

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#25 : February 12, 2007, 11:01:30 AM

Newbie aka T,

Access to gamefilm? Okay Tivo operator I will believe you. :D

If you watched the entire regular season instead of turning to and watching highlights of CJ by mid season you would have noticed the Bucs started to mix in coverages earlier in games and the blitzing was improving. There was a game where the Bucs defense mainly played man to man coverage but I will leave that mystery for you to figure out.



You're just clowining "T".... All Da Way.. Dont even waste your time with this fool. He talks to much and does'nt understand what he is saying 90% of the time. You are correct, and I know exacttly what game your talking about.. The final score was 20-3

We had to go to more man to man to stop the run because we sucked agaisnt the run towards the end of the year

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#26 : February 12, 2007, 11:13:43 AM

Watson,

I think you're right in many respecst the is nothing new in the NFL. The game changes every year with rules changes, personnel, coaching changes etc. which impacts the effectiveness of any given strategy.

Those of you pointing out that Monte mixes his coverages and is rarely in a true cover 2, I get that, but by building the team around their base defensive system they are ultimately limited by personnel as to what looks they can play effectively.

I'd like to see the bucs be a little more versitile personnel wise. If you watch Pitts, New England, Baltimore, San Diego they all have the ability to jump into a 4-3, or a 46 out of their base 3-4 or visa versa and play it for entire games when needed. I don't care if the Bucs base is a 4-3 or a 3-4 etc.... I would just like to see the roster have a bigger linebacker or two, a bigger nose, and definately a stud press, cover corner.
Johnm,
When the Bucs played the 3-4 in the 70s and early to mid 80s they had those types of players and they could be exploited.  The problem is always going to be finding a hybrid type player (especially LBs and DLs) that can work equally well in both schemes.  There are a few, but they are not always easy to find.  The one thing going against the Bucs and their scheme right now is how many teams are playing it.  They used to have limited competition for those types of players, but now the player pool is much smaller.  Once more teams go to the 3-4 the same thing will happen there.  I like an attacking defense that does not give the QB time to scan the field.  To me the biggest mistake that Chicago made was not knocking down Manning everytime he dropped back to pass.  I would rather lose being aggressive than being nickled and dimed to a slow death.

Truths:
1.  Never have an argument with an idiot.  They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with their experience.
2.  For some it would be better if they remained silent and be thought a fool than to speak and erase all doubt.

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#27 : February 12, 2007, 11:54:44 AM

how to beat the tampa 2: run a physical back at them all day.

the blueprint's been out there since we first ran the defense under dungy...every offense and defense has a blueprint for being beaten, to pull out a dungyism, it's just about who executes their blueprint better.  the tampa 2 isn't going anywhere, and the bears getting lit up is no different than the multiple times the bucs got lit up in their prime - it never spelled the end of the tampa 2.

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#28 : February 12, 2007, 11:59:43 AM

Back to the original question . . . sure.  Although Chicago's version of the "Tampa 2" (or whatever you want to call it) didn't fare too well against one of the greatest QBs to every play the game, Indy's verion was stout throughout the playoffs. 

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#29 : February 12, 2007, 12:28:19 PM

Stereo is right on about the differences between the classic Cover-2 and the Tampa-2; and Watson's spot on nothing is really ever "new;" coaches borrow all the time.
 
Quote

When the Bucs played the 3-4 in the 70s and early to mid 80s they had those types of players and they could be exploited. The problem is always going to be finding a hybrid type player (especially LBs and DLs) that can work equally well in both schemes. There are a few, but they are not always easy to find. The one thing going against the Bucs and their scheme right now is how many teams are playing it. They used to have limited competition for those types of players, but now the player pool is much smaller. Once more teams go to the 3-4 the same thing will happen there.
Quote

I think the biggest concern I have about the 3-4 is that you have to project arguably the most important players on your D - the outside rush lbs. When you select somebody like Shawne Merriman, it's easy. But a lot of times you are taking players who've played DE and never had to cover, play in space, and convert them. That puts a lot of pressure on the scouting department and the coaches. The 3-4 is hot now because of the success of teams like Pittsburgh and SD - but I think that as more teams play against it, it won't have as big an effect. Right now a team like the Bucs could go an entire year without facing the 3-4. That makes it tough to get ready for when you finally do face it.
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