Study: Spankings increases aggressiveness in children

OK, here is where I launch into my research methods training.

This study does not prove a CAUSAL relationship between spankings and lower IQ.  I think it is equally as valid that the kids with lower IQ's ended-up being spanked because they were POTENTIALLY less able to understand (and therefore learn from) punishments that appealed to reason.

Good luck funding and properly controlling the necessary large scale study across all socio-economic groups in various regions across the world to prove this point.  You are completely reliant on parental reporting of behavior which in itself is a weakness in any study. In the end, each parent needs to use the tools they feel is required to get the job done, and to hell with "trends".  If we all adjusted our behaviors to match "trends", we may as well start growing wool because we have allowed public opinion to supersede our own judgment.

[kevabuc]

Dark, I was also making the point that adults should also try to look at kids from a kids point of view. It helps in the understanding process of causes. When you were a kid didn't you always say to yourself that when you got to be an adult you would do things differently and always remember what it was like to be a kid. I did, all my friends did, there must be something to it.

The biggest problem I had with my parents was not that they would spank me on occassion, even if I felt like I was innocent. Although not something I strove to get, spankings were quick and done with and I could easily figure out how not to get another one for the same reason. The biggest problems came when my parents had trouble understanding what I was going through as a kid, even though I knew for certain that they were kids once, too. I mean, how could they possibly yell at me for wanting to lay in the back window of the car, or leave my toys out cuz I was coming right back in a few days or so. I mean, geez, it was only common sense, what was so hard for them to understand.

When they tried to figure out what it was like for a kid by asking me, that  is when I felt like I was figuring it out what it was like to be an adult. 

Spanking just made me feel like a kid, which was OK. It sure was a whole lot better then being an adult, that time was coming soon enough.     

[GhostRider]

This study does not prove a CAUSAL relationship between spankings and lower IQ. I think it is equally as valid that the kids with lower IQ's ended-up being spanked because they were POTENTIALLY less able to understand (and therefore learn from) punishments that appealed to reason.

Interesting counter argument.  However, I would contend that even if it were the case that slower kids got spanked more, would it not then be considered somewhat cruel to spank a kid who is incapable of understanding the punishments?  Besides, all children can learn reason, at least at some level. Special Ed Teachers will attest to as much.  Plus, though we always strive to teach logic and reason to our kids, their brains aren't fully capable of grasping it at adult levels regardless of IQ (as the pre-frontal cortex hasn't fully developed yet).  However, the reward system works on a conditioning level, that even (as Pavlov proved) lower species such as dogs can learn to master.  Kids with lower IQ's would therefore respond just as well to a reward system as kids with higher IQ's.

I disagee.  My son has ADHD (for real) and there are certain brain patterns that just do not comprehend or care about future consequences.  I would say that his IQ is fairly high, but we ran through all the reward programs (and gave them ample time) and he still only really responds and adjusts his behavior long term when he gets a pop.  He knows that getting a pop is the ultimate and at 10 he strives to remain out of trouble.

There is also a flaw in your argument.  Pavlov proved learned behavior...a light goes on and the fish know it is time to eat...  I do not think he proved that witholding of rewards when incorrect behavior is exhibited was effective.  The "do this so you receive that" is simple reasoning, but "do not do this or will will not receive that" is more cognitive and abstract.  Animals and humans learn it, but it is higher level reasoning and therefore in my mind more difficult to achieve in all cases.

[kevabuc]

This study does not prove a CAUSAL relationship between spankings and lower IQ. I think it is equally as valid that the kids with lower IQ's ended-up being spanked because they were POTENTIALLY less able to understand (and therefore learn from) punishments that appealed to reason.

Interesting counter argument. However, I would contend that even if it were the case that slower kids got spanked more, would it not then be considered somewhat cruel to spank a kid who is incapable of understanding the punishments? Besides, all children can learn reason, at least at some level. Special Ed Teachers will attest to as much. Plus, though we always strive to teach logic and reason to our kids, their brains aren't fully capable of grasping it at adult levels regardless of IQ (as the pre-frontal cortex hasn't fully developed yet). However, the reward system works on a conditioning level, that even (as Pavlov proved) lower species such as dogs can learn to master. Kids with lower IQ's would therefore respond just as well to a reward system as kids with higher IQ's.

Maybe the real problem is the adult level of reason and logic is usually twisted and warped due to age, bias and the burden of responsibility. The Peter Pan syndrome should be studied in relation to spanking. Childish adults probably don't spank kids as much as adultish adults do. Perhaps I can get a grant to study this.

There might also be a relation in IQ to spankings due to smarter kids just naturally knowing how not to get spanked and dumber kids can't learn how to not get spanked. So is it that spanking makes kids dumber or is it that dumber kids just can't avoid getting spanked?

I think people aren't giving the kids enough credit because they are too busy trying to fit kids into adult standards instead of looking at them from the viewpoint of kids.

[GhostRider]

I disagee. My son has ADHD (for real) and there are certain brain patterns that just do not comprehend or care about future consequences. I would say that his IQ is fairly high, but we ran through all the reward programs (and gave them ample time) and he still only really responds and adjusts his behavior long term when he gets a pop. He knows that getting a pop is the ultimate and at 10 he strives to remain out of trouble.

There is also a flaw in your argument. Pavlov proved learned behavior...a light goes on and the fish know it is time to eat... I do not think he proved that witholding of rewards when incorrect behavior is exhibited was effective. The "do this so you receive that" is simple reasoning, but "do not do this or will will not receive that" is more cognitive and abstract. Animals and humans learn it, but it is higher level reasoning and therefore in my mind more difficult to achieve in all cases.

You hit a kid with ADHD???

[GhostRider]

Hey captain quick-draw, I selectively spank my medically treated child with ADHD only when absolutely necessary. Go judge someone else because you have no business judging a situation based on your preconceived notions and complete lack of awareness.

Sorry, man, I admit it was reactionary, but from a psychological standpoint it made me cringe.  I'm sure you've taken the time to learn how ADHD affects the brain, so I'll spare you the fundamentals, but essentially impulse control kind of goes out the window with an ADHD kid.  I just don't possibly see how spanking a child does anything to allievate the inadequacies of their brain functioning.  Have you possibly run this by an expert in the field?  Again, not trying to tell you how to parent, because I'm sure as a parent of an ADHD kid, you've been through A LOT.  What I am saying is there may be some tried and true methods for ADHD kids that your Ped or another specialist in the field might be able to recommend that could help.  I just feel bad knowing that the kids taking swats for something his brain is failing to control, ya know?

Hey captain quick-draw, I selectively spank my medically treated child with ADHD only when absolutely necessary.  Go judge someone else because you have no business judging a situation based on your preconceived notions and complete lack of awareness.

[kevabuc]

Dark, maybe he was just wondering how you caught him and got him to hold still? Benefit of the doubt sort of thing.

I jumped your butt too, sorry.

We have seen three experts and had him to counselling.  My wife and I immerse ourselves in research to understand every possible aspect of what my children are dealing with.  You will not find many parents who take deeper dives than my wife and I into this stuff.

We know impulse control is a serious issue, but the correct medication takes the edge off enough for them to learn self control.  He usually slips when he is distracted and not thinking. Want to know the last pop he got?  4+ months ago.  Before that?  Almost a year. The offense? Long-standing family rules around safety or abusive language.  He learns and I am proud that he is managing his condition.

Kevabuc raised an interesting point about holding children to adult standards.  I think it varies on the situation, but children are more and more independent and they have to learn to function by adult rules and be aware of adult evils in order to be as safe as possible.  We let our kids be kids, trust me.  We also know that introduction to adult standards can not come like turning on a switch, they must be introduced to them and allowed to understand and learn.

kev,

So you are not into spanking adults???  SHOCK!!   lol, just having fun.  We are all pretty much on the same page, thanks for the banter.

[kevabuc]

kev,

So you are not into spanking adults??? SHOCK!! lol, just having fun. We are all pretty much on the same page, thanks for the banter.

Decorum prohibits me from saying what spanking increases in certain spousal tendencies.

[GhostRider]

kev,

So you are not into spanking adults??? SHOCK!! lol, just having fun. We are all pretty much on the same page, thanks for the banter.

Decorum prohibits me from saying what spanking increases in certain spousal tendencies.

Want a creepy connection?  People who like to be spanked during sex/foreplay were spanked as kids.  Their brain ended up wiring itself to seek out this dynamic in relationships...

[MBF]