with the first overall pick...

[The White Tiger]

Freeman was not surrounded by talent and HIS teams were outclassed each time he played a conference power.

So Freeman didn't have the 2nd leading receiver in the nation that last year he beat Texas?

Perhaps you're referring to Josh Freeman's true freshman season (he graduated in time to make spring drills at K-State - less than a year prior to starting at Texas, Freeman quarterbacked Grandview High School)?

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=263152306

Because Yamon Figurs was the leading receiver in that one - 6 receptions for 123 yds and 2 TD's. Freeman threw for 2 TD's & ran for 1TD. If you're referring to Jordy Nelson he only had 15 yards in that one.

Texas was ranked #4 in the nation and playing for a spot in the BIG 12 Championship and with one loss were thinking National Championship, again.

K-State had given up 21 sacks to that point and were facing a Texas DE by the name of Tim Crowder.

Now if you're referring to the 2007 game in which Jordy Nelson's 12 receptions for 112 yards & 1 TD as well as returning a punt for a TD.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=272720251

That's 14 points, K-State beat #7 ranked Texas 41-21.

K-State scored another 28 points without Jordy Nelson.

Sorry - you can't make the case against Freeman by saying he was surrounded by talent. He was the talent.

[Biggs3535]

Now if you're referring to the 2007 game in which Jordy Nelson's 12 receptions for 112 yards & 1 TD as well as returning a punt for a TD.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=272720251

That's 14 points, K-State beat #7 ranked Texas 41-21.

K-State scored another 28 points without Jordy Nelson.

Sorry - you can't make the case against Freeman by saying he was surrounded by talent. He was the talent.

14 of those other 27 points came from another special teams TD and an interception return for a TD.  McCoy threw 4 interceptions that game, was Freeman the cause of those as well?

I know you like Freeman, but let's not go overboard.

[The White Tiger]

I like Freeman because what I researched about him.

I have absolutely no reason to like him other than performance as an underdog his whole career.

I think he's a Jay Cutler type - only Cutler had a defense.

and Biggs - without looking - do you know the name of Freeman's RB's? How about any offensive linemen, tight ends or possibly any defensive players - that were drafted into the NFL from K-State that played with Freeman?

I'm a Buckeye, and one could make the case that I'm biased in favor of them and USF - but I can tell you - I have NOTHING in me that supports Big 12 football....

[Biggs3535]

I'm not saying Freeman had loads of talent around him, I'm just saying he didn't single-handedly beat Texas.  He had loads of help from his teammates.

I also agree with the others who have said the logic of QB A beat QB B's team, so QB A is better than QB B.  That doesn't fly, brother.  I think JG? and Dal have outlined the flaws in that thinking very well.

[The White Tiger]

Yes, it sounds like those making a case that Cutler's college performance was somehow indicative of poor performance in the NFL.

This theory of mine has as much merit in determining future success as any posted claiming that calamity awaits.

There was a reason Freeman was considered by more than the Bucs as a legitimate NFL starting QB with tremendous upside.

[Skull and Bones]

Terrence Cody of Bama 6'4" 365lbs Now that's a space eater. Probably eats other stuff too.

you guys should check this out just to get an idea how big and powerful this dude is:


His weight really concerns me however.  If he is still on the board at the top of the 2nd he could be a target for us.  He'll probably go to a 3-4 team however.

[Skull and Bones]

I don't know how accurate this is, but NFL.com lists Gardener as 295 lbs. That's about what Suh and McCoy are listed. I agree with you only Suh appears to be of such a superior talent he can work in any scheme, kind of like Kevin Williams. McCoy might be a little more pigeon-holed. It will just come down to BPA. If Suh is a Kevin Williams type he'll be more valuable than a DE who may not be the next John Abraham.

I remember him being in the 320 range.

[Biggs3535]

There was a reason Freeman was considered by more than the Bucs as a legitimate NFL starting QB with tremendous upside.

It would be interesting to see if these supposed teams reappear as trade partners, if for some reason the current coaching staff is relieved of their duties.

[John Galt?]

There was a reason Freeman was considered by more than the Bucs as a legitimate NFL starting QB with tremendous upside.

Yes, mostly physical measurable reasons. Like his height, arm strength, 40 times, agility, etc. A 6'6" beast that can throw a ball 50+ yards while rolling out

Is it just me or does that sound eeringly similar to JaMarcus Russell?   :-

One difference, and it could be a big one, is JaM Russell only played 2 seasons in college. I think JF came out too early (development wise) and JaM came out WAAAAY too early.

[John Galt?]

There was a reason Freeman was considered by more than the Bucs as a legitimate NFL starting QB with tremendous upside.

Yes, mostly physical measurable reasons. Like his height, arm strength, 40 times, agility, etc. A 6'6" beast that can throw a ball 50+ yards while rolling out is going to catch a few eyes regardless of his college teams W/L record.

[BucsBullsBolts]

There was a reason Freeman was considered by more than the Bucs as a legitimate NFL starting QB with tremendous upside.

Yes, mostly physical measurable reasons. Like his height, arm strength, 40 times, agility, etc. A 6'6" beast that can throw a ball 50+ yards while rolling out/quote]

Is it just me or does that sound eeringly similar to JaMarcus Russell?   :-

[BucsBullsBolts]

There was a reason Freeman was considered by more than the Bucs as a legitimate NFL starting QB with tremendous upside.

Yes, mostly physical measurable reasons. Like his height, arm strength, 40 times, agility, etc. A 6'6" beast that can throw a ball 50+ yards while rolling out

Is it just me or does that sound eeringly similar to JaMarcus Russell?   :-

One difference, and it could be a big one, is JaM Russell only played 2 seasons in college. I think JF came out too early (development wise) and JaM came out WAAAAY too early.

Ah, I didn't realize Russell came out that early ..... and Oakland made him the first overall pick? As long as Al owns the Raiders, the Bucs will never have the most inept organization in the NFL ...

[dbtb135]

Perhaps you're referring to Josh Freeman's true freshman season

Yes, because you say he beat Texas twice, and he didn't play them his junior year so obviously the LAST TIME he beat Texas was his true frosh season......

Now if you're referring to the 2007 game in which Jordy Nelson's 12 receptions for 112 yards & 1 TD as well as returning a punt for a TD.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=272720251

That's 14 points, K-State beat #7 ranked Texas 41-21.

K-State scored another 28 points without Jordy Nelson.

Sorry - you can't make the case against Freeman by saying he was surrounded by talent. He was the talent.

What kind of ridiculousness is that? Is 112 yards and 2 TDs not a great day for a receiver? What would make you give him credit? 4 TDs? How about 5? [banghead] Freeman didn't have a huge game, 58% passing for 4.7 yards an attempt. Ironically enough, FREEMAN himself only accounted for 1 TD in that game, the one he threw to Jordy Nelson. By your logic, you should be saying that Jordy Nelson wasn't surrounded by talent, he was the talent.......

Freeman WAS the talent, even though he played with the 2nd leading receiver in the nation who was drafted only about 20 spots below him (and obviously, Freeman got a big boost just because of the position he plays) in a better draft class? Way to give credit where it's not due!

Would you also take Lyle Moevao over Mark Sanchez? Sanchez's team was much more talented than any Texas team Freeman beat, and Moevao had didn't have very productive WRs.

[dalbuc]

Again, the "not surrounded by talent" might wash a bit better except for games like these:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=283062305
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=283202306

He had 4 turnovers vs a KU defense that was bad vs the pass (yes their offense was good but Freeman didn't play their offense)
He got benched vs Nebraska and a D rated worse than 100 in pass D

[The White Tiger]

hah - I just want to see the kid on the field Biggs - I don't want to kill him off before I see that...