with the first overall pick...

[Biggs3535]

This part?

Cutler carried his teams, performed near-flawlessly, and played the toughest defenses in the nation. Freeman was asked to do a lot for K-State, but he still left a lot to be desired. Thats one of the many reasons our fans weren't tickled to death when we drafted him. Freeman didn't play many tough defenses. Freeman's accuracy and decision making were questioned CONSTANTLY in college. Those were Cutler's strong points. Freeman was drafted more on his physical abilities and upside than his performances in college. Cutler was impressive in both facets. Freeman wasn't even a top 5 QB in his own conference. Cutler undoubtedly was. I could go on and on all day about these guys. But the fact is, they have very few similarities. They both played on average at best teams, they both have strong arms, and they both went in round 1. Thats about all I can think of....

I think it's pretty spot on, fair analysis.  It might not be an analysis you agree with, but it's not bashing Freeman for someone to say they don't think he's as good as Cutler.

[dbtb135]

I've got it - I just don't want the kid trashed before he does, or does not, prove it on the field.

Who's bashing Freeman? Did I call him garbage? No. The whole point I've been arguing is that you can't say he was surrounded by trash, then completely disregard his #1 WR and the amazing stats he put up in Freeman's soph year, AND THEN give him all the credit for that too. Obviously, with Nelson's draft stock and solid play after being at KSU, it wasn't all Freeman.

And it's not like the kid didn't have GLARING issues coming out. Guys can overcome them, but that doesn't mean they were never there to begin with. McNabb overcame accuracy issues, Kyle Boller didn't. Saying they both had them at the beginning of their careers isn't bashing them, it's the truth. You don't need to be so over-bearing on the guy.

Besides Gil Brandt had Freeman rated as one of the top 10 in the draft, this from Brandt's website:

http://chat.nfl.com/front/archived_chat/168

"Which players draft stock has risen the most as a result of his pro day workout?"

"Not only because of his pro day but because of his performance at the combine the player who has risen the most is Josh Freeman, the quarterback from Kansas State."

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story?id=09000d5d80fa17a0&template=without-video-with-comments&confirm=true

(Rated Number 3 in Gils top 100)

"...Josh Freeman, QB, Kansas State:
Tall (6-foot-5") with a big arm, Passed for 38 TDs over the last two seasons, Started eight games as a true freshman, Smart with great work habits, Father played in the USFL, Ran for 400 yards and 14 TDs in 2008 on a poor team, Risk-reward type of player..."

Considering Brandt is one of the pioneers of developing the scouting techniques used by NFL teams today, it would be unwise to bash his judgment.

I like Brandt. And he also liked our own Gaines Adams, so it's not like his judgment is infallible. And everyone knew for YEARS than Freeman would light up at Pro Day workouts. The kid's a goldmine in shorts and shells. Do we have any new information, because this type of thing was discussed a year ago in this and the TBBBB forum. I'm not a fan of repetitive arguments.

[dbtb135]

As far as Cutler, he was probably the best QB prospect between Rivers/Manning and Matt Ryan. Probably a better prospect than Ryan. Freeman wasn't the best QB prospect in his class. The only things that made Cutler the 3rd QB taken in his class was Young's physical upside and Leinart's proven record. Cutler was the most accurate, had the strongest arm, made plenty of pro level throws, didn't operate out of a gimmicky simplified offense like Young, wasn't surrounded by talent like Leinart, better pocket presence than either, etc etc.

Maybe Freeman fulfills all his potential and is a better pro QB. But as far as collegiate level performance, it's Cutler hands down. If Freeman would have stayed his senior year like Cutler, maybe he closes the gap. But he didn't.

[The White Tiger]

The discussion between dbtb and I centered around Freeman's performance against Texas...because we did not have ANY information that described Freeman as not being a hard-worker, or didn't have a great work ethic.

wow - seems defending a kid that hasn't even been on the field really irks you?

I'm not talking about what he's YET TO DO, I'm discussing what he's already done.

therefore why I posted that we have to look at his past, because he hasn't been allowed onto the field in an NFL regular season.

Freeman could only play the schedule that someone else designed...but it's interesting that you're now hanging that on him too? Man - is everything Josh Freeman's fault?

It's not who he played, it's who he didn't beat last year. Again, whats so hard to get here? If you need me to explain something further, just ask.

Brandts comments were quoted to show that Freeman came from a bad team - yet somehow this bad team beat Texas.

I hold that this shows us a lot. The coach was bad, with the exception of a couple of WR's the surrounding talent was bad, Freeman was able to win some very interesting talent.

Specifically - Freeman started and beat a ranked Texas team making plans for the national championship game - once as a true freshman - and beat them, twice,

That should have been enough.

Freeman performance was very similar to Jay Cutler in college - I hope that when he finally gets the chance to prove it in the NFL...he performs similarly at this level.

Cutler carried his teams, performed near-flawlessly, and played the toughest defenses in the nation. Freeman was asked to do a lot for K-State, but he still left a lot to be desired. Thats one of the many reasons our fans weren't tickled to death when we drafted him. Freeman didn't play many tough defenses. Freeman's accuracy and decision making were questioned CONSTANTLY in college. Those were Cutler's strong points. Freeman was drafted more on his physical abilities and upside than his performances in college. Cutler was impressive in both facets. Freeman wasn't even a top 5 QB in his own conference. Cutler undoubtedly was. I could go on and on all day about these guys. But the fact is, they have very few similarities. They both played on average at best teams, they both have strong arms, and they both went in round 1. Thats about all I can think of....

Cutler had a defense and a better supporting cast than Freeman - as evidenced by the following list of players now in the NFL that played with Cutler:

Hunter Hillenmeyer - LB graduated 2002/Drafted in 6th

Jovan Haye - DT graduated in 2004/Drafted in 6th

Justin Geisinger - G graduated in 2004 drafted 6th

Chris Williams - LT graduated in 2007/drafted 1st

Johnathon Goff - LB graduated in 2007/drafted 5th

Earl Bennet - WR graduated in 2007/drafted in 1st

Freeman was the only true freshman in the country to lead his team to a bowl game, he beat Texas twice, one of only 2 K-State QB's in history to throw for 60 TD's in his college career, ran for 400 yds and 14 TD'sin his senior year, and beat Oklahoma State, Texas and Colorado in his freshman season. 

I could go on - point is, until Kid Freeman gets on the field we only have past accomplishments to discuss and if you want to try and prove he was a bad QB - you have the burden of proof.

Until you do, there was more than enough justification for the pick, more than enough reason to make him the guy to run a down-field, stretch the field, offense.

[dbtb135]

So I have to DISPROVE that he's a good QB(because the logic is always that QBs are good until proven otherwise, that makes sense), and admit that he's worth the pick?

When have I ever even touched on these topics? Just stunning, WT. If you got off this kid's jock long enough to see straight, I'm sure you'd figure out that I'm not attacking him. Biggs saw it, I'm sure any impartial 3rd party sees it and giggles.

I was merely pointing out that you were trying to say that Freeman did it by himself when he DID have the 2nd leading receiver in the country. You point out Earl Bennett who was a 3rd round pick, wasn't Yamon Figurs a 3rd also? And Cutler had a better defense, but he also played better defenses than the cotton candy soft Texas Tech D, or Kansas, or Mizzou, or Baylor, or Iowa St, or Texas A&M. And most importantly, he performed better. Which I'm sure you'll take as an insult, but it's not.

Speaking of most importantly, how can I even begin to get you to understand what I'm saying when you're not even sure what the topic is? The conclusion of your last post, saying he's worth our pick, still has me scratching my head in terms of relevence. And I never discussed with you his work ethic, and only momentarily touched on Texas....

I'm not bashing your boy. But he did have flaws coming out, he did have so-so decision making in college, and he wasn't a one-man show.

[The White Tiger]

Except with the examples you gave it's pretty clear that you have been attacking the kid's college record - without any basis for doing so - else I would not have been discussing it with you in the first place.

I simply showed you how his college performance was no different than Cutlers.

...which turned up some SEC bias...which may be the root of your displeasure with all things Freeman..I can only assume.

Since that point was made revealed - you haven't replied with any cogent points, except to latch onto a point Biggs made.

I mean, if you're going to argue - at least stay focused.

[dbtb135]

Except with the examples you gave it's pretty clear that you have been attacking the kid's college record - without any basis for doing so - else I would not have been discussing it with you in the first place.

How have I attacked his record? You were saying he beat this team and that team, and MADE Nelson. I asked you who he beat last year without Nelson, answered it for you, and said I wasn't impressed. It's not my opinion on Freeman, it's not my opinion on his schedule, it's not my opinion on his record. IT IS HIS RECORD. It's a FACT. Get it through your dome.

I simply showed you how his college performance was no different than Cutlers.

...which turned up some SEC bias...which may be the root of your displeasure with all things Freeman..I can only assume.

Thats just it, WT. All you do is ASSume. I'm a Miami fan, so I'm sooo biased for the SEC. It sure takes an SEC fanboy like myself to see that the recent defenses fielded by Bama, Florida, Georgia, LSU, Tennessee, Auburn, etc are pretty tough to deal with.

You haven't been right about one thing so far, and you're now telling me what I'm arguing and what my opinion on Freeman is, and now what my biases are. The funny thing is, you assume I'm one of the Freeman haters and base most of your posts on that, vehemently defending Freeman. All the while failing to see that I never attacked him, and that I'm not one who hated the pick. I'm indifferent on the guy, but apparently saying he had ANY knocks coming out (because lord knows, people thought he was the bees knees this time last year....) and saying DON'T give him ALL the credit for Nelson's production is senselessly bashing him. [banghead]

Since that point was made revealed - you haven't replied with any cogent points, except to latch onto a point Biggs made.

I mean, if you're going to argue - at least stay focused.

The FIRST point I made was that Nelson was better than you gave him credit for, to which you defended Freeman with one of the dumbest arguments I've ever laid eyes on.

NOW you're telling me to stay focused, yet you've told me that he's a good QB until proven otherwise and that he was worth the pick. Well, I'm not discussing his pro career!!!

Thank you public schools for making me feel like I'm talking to a wall with a Josh Freeman poster on it.

[The White Tiger]

So, you're arguing because you think it's plausible that someone would imagine Freeman scored every touchdown in college all by himself...

...seriously?

You agree that Freeman was a great QB in college?

Then you obviously agree he has every chance of being an excellent pro - when he gets an opportunity?

Are you always so dramatic and argumentative?

[dalbuc]

You agree that Freeman was a great QB in college?

Find me all the great ones that got benched in their final year in college. Sorry, his college career is highly mediocre against any moderate level of competition.

[The White Tiger]

Yeah dal, he reminds me a lot of Jay Cutler, too.

[dalbuc]

Yeah dal, he reminds me a lot of Jay Cutler, too.

A. Cutler never got benched
B. Cutler had a 14-6 TD:INT ratio IN the SEC

There's nothing about Cutler that should remind you of Freeman.

[dbtb135]

So, you're arguing because you think it's plausible that someone would imagine Freeman scored every touchdown in college all by himself...

...seriously?

WT, do me a favor and say something competent, and then we can work from there.

You agree that Freeman was a great QB in college?

THANKS! No, I think he was above average with GREAT physical tools and potential.

Then you obviously agree he has every chance of being an excellent pro - when he gets an opportunity?

No, I don't. I think he has a lower chance than most, coming out as an underclassman, but a higher ceiling if he ever reaches it.

[The White Tiger]

How did you arrive at your hypothesis professor?

[The White Tiger]

Yeah dal, he reminds me a lot of Jay Cutler, too.

A. Cutler never got benched
B. Cutler had a 14-6 TD:INT ratio IN the SEC

There's nothing about Cutler that should remind you of Freeman.

Cutler's Left Tackle was drafted in the 1st round (Chris Williams), and another Guard drafted in the 6th (Justin Geisinger). Cutler played with Earl Bennet who compiled the most receptions in SEC history...

Freeman had a WR drafted in the 2nd round (Jordy Nelson) and a KR drafted in the 3rd...

...kind of builds in a bit of a handicap...for Cutler...and even then, the rest of the details seem to dovetail pretty well...

I'm not saying Freeman will reach the level of Cutler, but their college pedigrees certainly are comparable - right down to draft position of the 3 QB's selected in each draft...so there's just as much "proof" that Freeman will be fine (once he gets on the field), as you use to allege he won't be...

Given the free choice and equivalent "proof" why would anyone decide he's toast prior to actually seeing him play?

BTW - to correct an error - Freeman has never been benched, he'd have to have been named starter first - or were you referring to Lefty?