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sammy8887

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#75 : October 27, 2007, 06:31:49 PM

I think Gruden got EVERYTHING he wanted in Oakland. Gruden had weekly meetings with Al. Gruden bonded pretty quickly with Allen. Gruden and Allen were responsible for the talent in Oakland.

Evidence: if Al Davis was the real genious behind Grudens talent acquisition in Oakland - 1) what did he do with the 2 number one's and two number two's he got from the Bucs? 2) Why has Oakland fallen off the map since Gruden left?


Your evidence doesn't necessarily support your first paragraph: That Gruden got everything he wanted...If Gruden got everything he wanted in Oakland (every player, contract extension, etc.) he'd probably still be there.

In 2000, Gruden wanted Shaun Alexander, they took Sebastian Janikowski in the first round. In 2001, Gruden wanted Todd Heap, they took Derrick Gibson in the first round. It'd take some time to find a link for that, but it seems to be common knowledge in Oakland.

The White Tiger

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#76 : October 27, 2007, 07:13:02 PM

"Common knowledge in Oakland..." besides the obvious contradiction - was the knowledge from now, or then?

OK - I'll concede this - my meaning is that he got the guys he wanted for his offense. Perhaps he didn't get every player he coveted - but he definitely got the pieces he needed. He had a strong team. Your post seems to underscore the fact that he had a pretty strong GM.

The point about what happened to the talent acquisition AFTER Gruden and Allen left has not been addressed.

These points prove that Gruden Allen were the braintrust in Oakland - not an ever increasingly senile Al Davis - and are finally seeing their work together here in Tampa begin to pay off. Just as Wolf made Holmgren better - Allen makes Gruden better - and they both know it.

You will see this tandem do very well as they continue to learn and grow together.

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sammy8887

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#77 : October 27, 2007, 07:27:32 PM

Buckeye,

We are still talking about "point 2," right? Where Gruden had the same control to pick his players?

Here's a couple of links that googled when I put in, "Davis screwed the pooch." ;)

If Gruden had stayed, this current mess might not be happening. But he couldn't coexist with Davis, who disliked seeing his coach receive much of the credit for the team's success. Nor would Gruden abide by Davis' constant interference. Gruden welcomed a trade after the 2001 season that landed him in Tampa; he promptly coached the Bucs to a win over the Raiders in Super Bowl 37. In the five years since Gruden's departure, Davis has gone through three head coaches.

"Al had the coach he needed in Gruden," one NFL team official says. "If they had been able to work together, none of what you see now would have happened. But Al doesn't want anyone else to be in the spotlight but him. When people began saying Gruden was the reason the Raiders were good, it was only a matter of time before he was gone."


http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=168848


I doubt Gruden wanted Janikowski over Shaun Alexander...

Just like Gruden wanted Heap and Davis went with Gibson.


http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/oakland-raiders-forum-message-board/115598-raiders-have-diamond-huff-8.html


BornaBuc47

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#78 : October 27, 2007, 07:37:14 PM

Well, he's got all the power here without Davis to supposedly "scew up" what Gruden wants and our drafts have been putrid. I find it very difficult to believe that Gruden knows what he's doing in the draft or as an offensive coach. The only person who has had a top rated offense since 2001 is Callahan and Davis.

From 12 Pro Bowlers to 0-We got hosed alright


Biggs3535

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#79 : October 27, 2007, 09:16:07 PM

But...you are a moron, so no one cares what you think.



The White Tiger

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#80 : October 27, 2007, 09:48:09 PM

Sammy - still am not seeing anything other than speculation..point two (mine anyway) was that the talent evaluation slipped dramatically after Gruden and Allen left. I don't dispute that Davis meddled - but I think he left Gruden alone more than any other coach of the past 4 Oakland coaches.

Since Al didn't like the WCO - and was one of the reasons he hesitated in hiring him - Gruden was allowed to work with Allen to build the team his way, for the most part.

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#81 : October 28, 2007, 09:42:32 AM

Sammy - still am not seeing anything other than speculation..point two (mine anyway) was that the talent evaluation slipped dramatically after Gruden and Allen left. I don't dispute that Davis meddled - but I think he left Gruden alone more than any other coach of the past 4 Oakland coaches.

Since Al didn't like the WCO - and was one of the reasons he hesitated in hiring him - Gruden was allowed to work with Allen to build the team his way, for the most part.
I for one don't think Gruden nor Allen had much impact on draft day in Oakland, but looking back I don't think you can say they had better drafts while Gruden was there than before. Pretty much the only good players drafted while Gruden was there were Charles Woodson, Jon Ritchie, Rod Coleman, and Jerry Porter. They drafted two 1st round guards, one who completely sucked, Stinchcomb, and one who ate himself out of the league, Mo Collins. The four years before they got Darrell Russell, Adam Treu, Grady Jackson, LaRoi Glover, and Barret Robbins. It's a push at best.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#82 : October 28, 2007, 10:47:40 AM

Here are a  list of teams currently running the Bill Walsh WCO

Seattle

Tampa Bay

Philly

What do all these teams have in common?  They all struggle mightly on offense most of the time.  Only Tampa Bay has a winning record (barely).  Maybe the WCO has run it's course in the NFL.  Anyone remember the Run N Shoot?


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Please sell the team to Eddie DeBartolo.

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