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warrenfb12

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#15 : October 16, 2009, 01:14:05 PM

I don't think the last 4 or 5 years have been that bad. Decent drafts, not great, but decent. The problem with the team right now is the head coach and owners.

That and the fact that under Gruden, the bucs couldn't draft a servicable first day pick, let alone a pro bowler.


warrenfb12

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#16 : October 16, 2009, 01:14:45 PM

The Patriots can forge forward because they have still made some hits with the draft, and have made trades that have worked out for them (Welker, Moss). They are able to do that because they stockpile picks.

Do the Bucs have a Wilfork they drafted on the team? What about Mayo?


It could be argued that Joseph, Ruud, T Jax and Talib are pretty close if not as good.  But everyone will have their own views about them.

wrong


warrenfb12

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#17 : October 16, 2009, 01:17:00 PM


Back in April, Hickey spoke with member�s of the media to deflect or defend blame for the lack of drafting and developing talent. During the spin fest, Hickey ventimately disagreed when asked why there hasn�t been more elite talent drafted by telling those in attendance.

�That is where I would disagree with you. Maybe they are not voted to the Pro Bowl, but we do feel like we have some elite players on this team that we�ve drafted in recent years. That we are very excited about.�

I remember when I asked Dennis that question. Throughout the interview he was staying calm and being evasive to some straightforward tough questions from the media. I pointed out to Dennis that he has drafted one pro bowler and zero all-pros. I asked what has caused the team not to be able to draft more elite talent. After that question he got very animated, his voice raised, and he leaned across the table towards me to answer the question.

It is hard to pin-point how much or how little influence Dennis had under Bruce Allen and Jon Gruden. We keep asking sources, and the answers aren't clear. We do know that he has a huge voice in the player selection under Mark Dominik. Dominik makes the final call. Raheem Morris and Dennis Hickey have the biggest voices that Dominik leans on. Dennis will have at least one more draft, and then maybe Dominik would bring in someone with an eye for talent to help with the drafting. But I'd be surprised if Dominik ever demotes Dennis or fires him. They are best friends.

best friends huh? That's cute...if this guy thinks that this team has drafted well...he is a moron and should be fired on that comment alone.


John Galt?

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#18 : October 16, 2009, 01:57:02 PM

Since 2004

        picks      still on team      impact players     miss %(players not on team or traded-lost in FA/picks)
'04     8               2                          0                    75%
'05    12              3*                        2                    75%         *since Alex Smith was traded I counted him
'06    10              3                          2                    70%
'07    10              5*                        3?                   50%        *including Sears ?between Sabby and Black I counted both as 1 impact player since Sears was Impact but future is doubtful.
'08     7               5                          3-4 (JJ?)          28.5% (could rise to 35% if Dre Moore flops)
___________________________________________________________________________________________

So we have mostly been missing well over 50% of our draft picks with less than 30% of the guys from '04-'07, who would now be in their prime years, even making ANY team. And of those that are still around, we have Clayton-the drop machine, Sears-AWOL, Adams, which are soon-to-be-busts.

Our drafting has been sub-par to pathetic, hence 0-5 start.




nubcake

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#19 : October 16, 2009, 02:03:55 PM

The Patriots can forge forward because they have still made some hits with the draft, and have made trades that have worked out for them (Welker, Moss). They are able to do that because they stockpile picks.

Do the Bucs have a Wilfork they drafted on the team? What about Mayo?


It could be argued that Joseph, Ruud, T Jax and Talib are pretty close if not as good.  But everyone will have their own views about them.

wrong

How so? Certainly Ruud is. Talib arguably already is, and will be better if he can learn to cover the deep pass better, as that's his only weakness. Jackson and Joseph are questionable, but certainly close.

The problem is, those 4 aren't good enough, because we're talking about a HUGE span of time here. Furthermore, outside of those guys, there are very few picks that are even serviceable. That's a major issue. No one should expect every pick to be like those guys, but the Bucs are either hit or miss worse than a Jake Delhomme throw in the playoffs.


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#20 : October 16, 2009, 02:04:27 PM

Take for example the trade of Richard Seymour. Always known as a slightly cantankerous character, the five time Pro Bowler went from being the leader of the Patriots defense, the heart and soul of the unit, an All Pro performer, coming off an 8 sack season, to being washed up, ageing, over the hill and finished in the time it took to announce his trade from the Patriots (good) to the Raiders (evil).

As one friend said to me, 'I have no doubt that if the Pats had acquired Seymour from the Raiders for a 2011 1st rd pick it would have been hailed as a master stroke by New England'.Of all the hyperbole that has surrounded the trade, you'd think the Patriots had shipped Rick Mirer to the Bears for a #1.


I actually think this trade works for Oakland as well as it does for New England. Based on what Oakland does with 1st round picks, a guy like Richard Seymour is much more valuable. 1-2 years of guys like Seymour >>> massive contracts on guys like JaMarcus/Gallery/Heyward-Bey/etc.

watson

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#21 : October 16, 2009, 06:55:10 PM

The Patriots can forge forward because they have still made some hits with the draft, and have made trades that have worked out for them (Welker, Moss). They are able to do that because they stockpile picks.

Do the Bucs have a Wilfork they drafted on the team? What about Mayo?


It could be argued that Joseph, Ruud, T Jax and Talib are pretty close if not as good. But everyone will have their own views about them.

wrong
You are entitled to that view.....I just disagree.

Truths:
1.  Never have an argument with an idiot.  They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with their experience.
2.  For some it would be better if they remained silent and be thought a fool than to speak and erase all doubt.

Trojan52

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#22 : October 16, 2009, 07:17:02 PM

Since 2004

        picks      still on team      impact players     miss %(players not on team or traded-lost in FA/picks)
'04     8               2                          0                    75%
'05    12              3*                        2                    75%         *since Alex Smith was traded I counted him
'06    10              3                          2                    70%
'07    10              5*                        3?                   50%        *including Sears ?between Sabby and Black I counted both as 1 impact player since Sears was Impact but future is doubtful.
'08     7               5                          3-4 (JJ?)          28.5% (could rise to 35% if Dre Moore flops)
___________________________________________________________________________________________

So we have mostly been missing well over 50% of our draft picks with less than 30% of the guys from '04-'07, who would now be in their prime years, even making ANY team. And of those that are still around, we have Clayton-the drop machine, Sears-AWOL, Adams, which are soon-to-be-busts.

Our drafting has been sub-par to pathetic, hence 0-5 start.



I don't know why you would still count Alex Smith, he obviously wasn't sticking around.

Hickey deserves to be tea bagged.


finnbluebucs

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#23 : October 16, 2009, 07:20:56 PM

We can debate this all we like, but the Bucs' drafts have been pretty poor over the last decade or so. Its time we started over with the scouting department if you ask me. We've done it with the HC, GM and with the players too, so why not the scouts as well?

\"We are frustrated at not making the playoffs. It is a good start. That is all it is. It is a good start for something that we are going to be in the future. - Josh Freeman

Trojan52

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#24 : October 16, 2009, 07:22:25 PM

We can debate this all we like, but the Bucs' drafts have been pretty poor over the last decade or so. Its time we started over with the scouting department if you ask me. We've done it with the HC, GM and with the players too, so why not the scouts as well?
I'd like to keep Doug Williams around however.

Hickey and he rest can be tared, feathered, tea bagged and promptly be set on fire.


ryan24

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#25 : October 16, 2009, 07:22:36 PM

The Bucs haven't drafted any real high end players over the last decade. Even guys such as Ruud, Joseph, etc. fall into the pretty good rather than star category. That's the problem.

Happy and Peppy and Bursting with love.

devasher

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#26 : October 16, 2009, 07:23:29 PM



It is hard to pin-point how much or how little influence Dennis had under Bruce Allen and Jon Gruden. We keep asking sources, and the answers aren't clear. We do know that he has a huge voice in the player selection under Mark Dominik. Dominik makes the final call. Raheem Morris and Dennis Hickey have the biggest voices that Dominik leans on. Dennis will have at least one more draft, and then maybe Dominik would bring in someone with an eye for talent to help with the drafting. But I'd be surprised if Dominik ever demotes Dennis or fires him. They are best friends.

CC,

Would you be so kind as to ask Dominik how that strategy is going for him so far?

If Dom has half a clue and a sense of self-preservation he will stop "leaning" on those two immediately. Friends or not, Hickey will not be able to get Dominik another GM job when they are both canned halfway through next season...

John Galt?

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#27 : October 16, 2009, 07:35:40 PM

Since 2004

� � � � picks� � � still on team� � � impact players� � �miss %(players not on team or traded-lost in FA/picks)
'04� � �8� � � � � � � �2� � � � � � � � � � � � � 0� � � � � � � � � � 75%
'05� � 12� � � � � � � 3*� � � � � � � � � � � � 2� � � � � � � � � � 75%� � � � �*since Alex Smith was traded I counted him
'06� � 10� � � � � � � 3� � � � � � � � � � � � � 2� � � � � � � � � � 70%
'07� � 10� � � � � � � 5*� � � � � � � � � � � � 3?� � � � � � � � � �50%� � � � *including Sears ?between Sabby and Black I counted both as 1 impact player since Sears was Impact but future is doubtful.
'08     7               5                          3-4 (JJ?)          28.5% (could rise to 35% if Dre Moore flops)
___________________________________________________________________________________________

So we have mostly been missing well over 50% of our draft picks with less than 30% of the guys from '04-'07, who would now be in their prime years, even making ANY team. And of those that are still around, we have Clayton-the drop machine, Sears-AWOL, Adams, which are soon-to-be-busts.

Our drafting has been sub-par to pathetic, hence 0-5 start.



I don't know why you would still count Alex Smith, he obviously wasn't sticking around.

Because we got something for him. He was the starting TE for a couple years, then we traded him. So it wasn't like we spent a draft pick on him, more like we rented him for the difference between a 3rd and a 5th.



Hickey deserves to be tea bagged.

by a Syphilitic elephant.


Biggs3535

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#28 : October 16, 2009, 08:18:32 PM

I have to agree with the article. Gruden himself almost never got the players he wanted from the draft...and those players (such as Westbrook) went to have great success...


QFT. Gruden never got to have HIS guys. It's a shame.

There really are people who believe this crap, huh?

That's just as ignorant as saying Allen was Gruden's puppet and Gruden made every pick.


rpc1978

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#29 : October 16, 2009, 09:13:26 PM

The Bucs haven't drafted any real high end players over the last decade. Even guys such as Ruud, Joseph, etc. fall into the pretty good rather than star category. That's the problem.

agreed.  both are pretty good players but that it.  we dont have any studs on either side of the ball.  no playmakers. 
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