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Uncle Stan

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: October 22, 2009, 10:49:33 AM

IIRC, his job is only to present the players.

It would seem to me, that those who participate in the final decisions, need to do their own homework also.

Just not sure how of much of that is actually being done.

Anyone know for a fact how this is handled at OBP?

Learn to disagree without being disagreeable-Ronald Reagan circa 1981

FartMan

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#1 : October 22, 2009, 10:51:49 AM

The whole front office needs to be cleaned out. 

The Bucs have operated with a by committee approach for a long time... Thus making it difficult to assign blame... So, when in doubt...can the whole committee.

Madman

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#2 : October 22, 2009, 10:55:19 AM

I agree, Hickey isn't making the final call but someone had to rank Dexter Jackson as a second round pick value before GruAllen picked him. Just one example.

GhostRider

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#3 : October 22, 2009, 10:57:24 AM

They're all responsible.  That's why usually when the HC goes, the Ownerships does a clean sweep.  Of course, our owners are idiots, so....


Uncle Stan

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#4 : October 22, 2009, 11:02:35 AM

^^^

?

When is the last time you saw a team clean house in the scouting department.

I don't ever recall any.

Learn to disagree without being disagreeable-Ronald Reagan circa 1981

FartMan

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#5 : October 22, 2009, 11:04:38 AM

^^^

?

When is the last time you saw a team clean house in the scouting department.

I don't ever recall any.

Happens all the time... usually not big news... The Chiefs did it just after the draft.  That is the best time to do it, because you don't want to throw away a years worth of preparation.

TheShadow

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#6 : October 22, 2009, 11:06:26 AM

I don't think the Bengals even have scouts.

Quit beefing about the past and start hoping for the future
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PewterReportCC

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#7 : October 22, 2009, 11:14:26 AM

Hickey has a huge amount of influence in the final decision. It is even greater under Mark Dominik.

Feel Real Good

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#8 : October 22, 2009, 11:16:45 AM

There are types of drafting goofs:

1. When you pick a player in the general area he is expected to be drafted because he fits an immediate need more so than other similarly rated players also available. Examples would be Michael Clayton, Carnell Williams, and Gaines Adams. I tend to believe those problems arise from the GM and coaches pushing a win now agenda and not seeing the big picture.

2. When you pick a player not very close to where anyone else expected him to be picked. Examples would be Dexter Jackson, Sabby Piscitelli, Quincy Black, Chris Colmer, and Marquis Cooper. I tend to believe those problems arise from scouts "seeing" something no one else sees.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

Madman

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#9 : October 22, 2009, 11:18:30 AM

There are types of drafting goofs:

2. When you pick a player not very close to where anyone else expected him to be picked. Examples would be Dexter Jackson, Sabby Piscitelli, Quincy Black, Chris Colmer, and Marquis Cooper. I tend to believe those problems arise from scouts "seeing" something no one else sees.

Well put.

Larry Brackins baby!

warrenfb12

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#10 : October 22, 2009, 11:24:26 AM

best player available. You would think teams would get this by now.


CadillacPower24_2006

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#11 : October 22, 2009, 11:39:53 AM

best player available. You would think teams would get this by now.

its not always about the best player available

Mean D

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#12 : October 22, 2009, 11:45:52 AM

Hickey ia also Dominik's best friend.  He really should have been the 1st to go.

Uncle Stan

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#13 : October 22, 2009, 12:32:33 PM

There are types of drafting goofs:

1. When you pick a player in the general area he is expected to be drafted because he fits an immediate need more so than other similarly rated players also available. Examples would be Michael Clayton, Carnell Williams, and Gaines Adams. I tend to believe those problems arise from the GM and coaches pushing a win now agenda and not seeing the big picture.

2. When you pick a player not very close to where anyone else expected him to be picked. Examples would be Dexter Jackson, Sabby Piscitelli, Quincy Black, Chris Colmer, and Marquis Cooper. I tend to believe those problems arise from scouts "seeing" something no one else sees.

I would disagree on Colmer. Only reason Colmer fell was his disease, which was supposedly in total remission.

Guess the Bucs felt it was worth the risk. If it worked out they might have gotten a steal. Unfortunately his illness came back.

Learn to disagree without being disagreeable-Ronald Reagan circa 1981

CyberDilemma

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#14 : October 22, 2009, 12:57:13 PM

IIRC, his job is only to present the players.

It would seem to me, that those who participate in the final decisions, need to do their own homework also.

Just not sure how of much of that is actually being done.

Anyone know for a fact how this is handled at OBP?


Here's DTG's perspective on it.....


So the HC and his staff - the guys with their butts on the line to win - carried little weight - no wonder.

Here's how it came about. Sam had final decisions on personnel before Rich McKay wrested it away from him at the end. Sam, despite his obvious flaws, did a pretty darned good job in evaluating players. Contributing to his assessments were both scouts AND his coaching staff, and maybe that's why he did a good job: he listened equally to both halves of that equation. Remember that Sam was the guy who championed John Lynch and convinced him to play football. That said, at times Sam may have been swayed by powerful arguments from either of those two groups. In fact, every Bucs fan owes Rusty Tillman a great debt for arguably the greatest Buccaneer of all time, Derrick Brooks.

Rusty coveted Warren Sapp mightily and scouts and the most of the rest of staff had him at the top of their draft board. McKay was interested in another player, a "safer" pick. Sam took everyone out on the back porch at OBP and had a bit of a "conference" there. After some short discussion, he decided to roll the dice and trade down and told Rich to go back inside and make a deal. At that point, Rusty was absolutely LIVID. He was dying for Sapp, and was sure he'd end up "stuck" with the guy that McKay favored (Mike Mamula). Though it was never stated to me directly, I think Sam took a shot that one of those two guys will still be on the board, even though Warren was the most coveted by most (despite the drug reports). As it turned out, obviously, Sam's gamble paid off and the Bucs were able to grab Sapp Daddy after moving down and getting an extra pick.

Well, as the first round wound down, Rusty started to speak out again, and got very animated. He really wanted the Bucs to trade back up into the first round and take Derrick Brooks, a guy he told Sam reminded him of Rufus Porter. He told Sam that Derrick would be worth moving up for and Sam agreed, and he told McKay to find a trade partner. McKay preferred that the Bucs stay put, but Sam overruled him. The rest, of course, is history.

Rich McKay, overruled twice in a row, was perturbed. Despite being the General Manager, he didn't have full control over the draft. He openly referred to that draft day as a "circus" and complained -- successfully -- to the Glazers that he and not Sam should have final say-so on draft selections as well as other personnel decisions. From that day forward, Rich put in place a firm "coaches coach and scouts scout" policy.

He maintained that during Coach Dungy's tenure. Coach Dungy respected McKay's position -- or perhaps like the two guys who turned McKay down before Dungy was hired, Steve Spurrier and Jimmy Johnson, he didn't have enough experience or power to demand control over draft choices. The sole exception was Warrick Dunn, who Coach Dungy lobbied extremely hard for and, as we know, was given.

Same deal with McKay and Gruden, then Allen and Gruden?

No. The Glazers had lost confidence in Rich McKay after his rebellious unauthorized "hiring" of a new head coach. When Coach Gruden was hired, the owners were ready to part ways with McKay if Gruden had desired that, but it was actually Coach Gruden who convinced the owners to keep McKay as GM -- but he did want to have more input into personnel decisions than the previous coach did.

There was much struggle over personnel decisions between the Coach and GM, with Rich McKay sometimes exercising his ultimate decision-making power to the dismay of the coach. I wondered if, at times, McKay made choices that he knew would get under Gruden's skin, just to rub his face in the fact that he had the ultimate power. That relationship fell apart as you well know. After that, due to the power struggle, the owners allowed their Super Bowl winning Head Coach to choose his next "boss" as it were.

During the Gruden-Allen era, Coach Gruden and his coaching staff had FAR more input into player personnel decisions and the draft than at any time since Sam Wyche. Allen retained the ultimate final say, but I doubt that there was any player preference that Gruden really storngly had that Allen didn't give in to.

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