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Ladyfan

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#90 : April 10, 2011, 11:17:30 PM

jbear.  I'm happy for you that you had a good experience with your hotel job.  I've been self employed all my life until 2007.  I was forced to go into the market place and take whatever jobs I could get....along with a lot of folks who were seeking first jobs, working to pay for college, older fired folks like me and the general work group that changes jobs all the time.

The call center for Verizon was like a lower level of hell.  The way they treated pregnant women, young guys and girls with no prior work experience who were trying hard and doing a good job, untrained supervisors, corrumpt marketing people from verizon, overtime promised and not paid, last min rearranging of hours, etc.
If ever a union was needed...it was here.


Its disengenuous to say if people don't like their job or the way they are treated they can quit in this job market.  Many folks now hold down jobs they hate for low pay but CANNOT quit due to lack of other available jobs.  In the severe absence of jobs, it would be nice if companies playeed by the rules.

The lack of ethics in companies I have worked for in the past three years is unbelieveable.  Misleading claims, and no explanations for the difference between the way things really work and "as advertised".  That includes everything from recruiting firms, missing contract explanations, to out and out deceit such as promised bonuses for work not given...Honestly, I could go on and on. Perhaps, this is more painful for me than younger kids in the workplace who maybe don't realize that these "lapses" are illegal, immoral and unethical depending on the offense.  In one company, one of the leading salesgals regularly pays the girls on the switchboard to give all the in coming calls to her, also comps the payroll department to increase her numbers to hit sales goals.....

Frankly, I have been appalled.  So I don't hink my fear of corporations is irrational at all.  I think any unchecked power that has no oversight will go as far as they can to line their own pockets because .....they can.  And they will do it at the expense of others.  That goes for unions, companies really any group of people who have too much power at their fingertips.   Very few people become a Gandhi or an Albert Schweitzer or a Mother Theresa.  Rather, the opposite is the norm of human nature, I fear.

I certainly do not want my life, my work or my good practices affected by the likes of those I have mentioned, which is why I'll have to start another company for myself to work with.


Ladyfan

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#91 : April 10, 2011, 11:20:13 PM

BTW not saying I never broke a rule etc....I ain't no angel but I do not, as a rule, take advantage of  others or mislead them unless we're dating.....lol.


jbear

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#92 : April 11, 2011, 02:19:31 PM

jbear.  I'm happy for you that you had a good experience with your hotel job.  I've been self employed all my life until 2007.  I was forced to go into the market place and take whatever jobs I could get....along with a lot of folks who were seeking first jobs, working to pay for college, older fired folks like me and the general work group that changes jobs all the time.

The call center for Verizon was like a lower level of hell.  The way they treated pregnant women, young guys and girls with no prior work experience who were trying hard and doing a good job, untrained supervisors, corrumpt marketing people from verizon, overtime promised and not paid, last min rearranging of hours, etc.
If ever a union was needed...it was here.


Its disengenuous to say if people don't like their job or the way they are treated they can quit in this job market.  Many folks now hold down jobs they hate for low pay but CANNOT quit due to lack of other available jobs.  In the severe absence of jobs, it would be nice if companies playeed by the rules.

The lack of ethics in companies I have worked for in the past three years is unbelieveable.  Misleading claims, and no explanations for the difference between the way things really work and "as advertised".  That includes everything from recruiting firms, missing contract explanations, to out and out deceit such as promised bonuses for work not given...Honestly, I could go on and on. Perhaps, this is more painful for me than younger kids in the workplace who maybe don't realize that these "lapses" are illegal, immoral and unethical depending on the offense.  In one company, one of the leading salesgals regularly pays the girls on the switchboard to give all the in coming calls to her, also comps the payroll department to increase her numbers to hit sales goals.....

Frankly, I have been appalled.  So I don't hink my fear of corporations is irrational at all.  I think any unchecked power that has no oversight will go as far as they can to line their own pockets because .....they can.  And they will do it at the expense of others.  That goes for unions, companies really any group of people who have too much power at their fingertips.   Very few people become a Gandhi or an Albert Schweitzer or a Mother Theresa.  Rather, the opposite is the norm of human nature, I fear.

I certainly do not want my life, my work or my good practices affected by the likes of those I have mentioned, which is why I'll have to start another company for myself to work with.

In fairness, hospitality is a little bit different as it really does pay for them to have happy employees when it comes to guest service.  One thing I'll agree with is that sales positions in genral have the biggest opprotunities for abuse and in general the most successful sales people are those with the very lowest moral standards.  I'm not a fan of salesmen as a whole although I do know a few who are OK.  I'd never really trust them though.  Have a beer with them sure, give them keys to my house or tell them I'm outa town, let them hang around my wife.  Not likely. 

spartan

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#93 : April 11, 2011, 03:10:32 PM


Those salaries aren't really that exorbitant considering the amount of members in the unions that they represent. Those are the 300lbs gorillas in the union world, yet still, not exactly a lot of millionaires on that list.

If we were talking about CEO's I would agree with you, but we are not. We are talking about people who stand on their soap box and lecture us about "fairness", "fair share", "fortunate", "equality", "inequality', "millionaires and billionaires", "the rich" (earning less than them), call their colleagues "brother" or "comrade" then go home to what I am certain won't be a 1500sq ft townhouse.

CEO's of fortune 500 companies actually earn about 5 times as much as most of these guys. And your description of the job they do is a bit lacking. But either way, their salaries are paid by Union dues. I don't see the Teamsters all up in a tizzy about how much James Hoffa makes. What does it matter to you what he makes? I guess what I'm trying to say is, what's the point of bringing up their salaries? The fact that they bring in 6 figure incomes means that they are somehow hypocrites for speaking out on behalf of workers rights? I don't see the logic behind that.

Because it is indicative that Unions are no longer about taking care of the WORKING man/woman. It is all about squeezing the most money and perks for themselves. Take Wisconsin. The Unions were actually prepared to throw their members under the bus but refused to budge on the collective bargaining and dues issues. Why was that? For one, they knew that if their members actually had  a say if, when and how their dues would be paid and spent it not only takes power out of their hands their members might not pay. So when it came down to it, they opted to "draw a line in the sand" when it came to protecting their own power base and very large salaries, not the salaries and benefits of their members.

John Galt?

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#94 : April 11, 2011, 04:05:45 PM

in general the most successful sales people are those with the very lowest moral standards.

That is absolutely not true. In fact the opposite is true, salespeople with low ethics soon find themselves flushed out. To succeed in sales you have to get referrals and recommendations and you don't get those by being unscrupulous. The most successful sales people are those with loyal customers that give them repeat business. To truly succeed you have to BELIEVE in what you sell.

Sales certainly attracts far too many shysters, and it has an incredibly high turnover. But those two things are very related. The scamsters don't last, they always run out of marks and move on. The guys that last 10-15-20 years only do so by being honest, upfront and forthright. 


Ladyfan

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#95 : April 11, 2011, 05:12:35 PM

Galt.  Agree with you.  However, I'm speaking more of the built-in customer deception generated by the corporation and blamed on the sales people.  There are however, quite a few dirty dogs in sales as we have all experienced, I'm sure.


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#96 : April 11, 2011, 08:57:40 PM

The same applies Ladyfan - those without ethical trait are doomed to failure long term

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

Ladyfan

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#97 : April 12, 2011, 05:32:06 PM

Definitely.  No question about it.  Yet there is always another to take their p lace so in effect there are allways people within an org that have their own interests at heart or rather their pocket book.  I met a guy out of jail who admitted he stole from an insurance company because he wanted to see what it would be like to have money etc,  He had a super car, apartment, clothing etc.  Knew he'd get caught and go to jail but wanted to have it once.....go figure.


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#98 : April 13, 2011, 08:46:07 AM

The main thing that I have a problem with is education.  This is one area we can not afford to cut.  Our state wants to push for higher test scores and highly qualified teachers but they do not want to put money into the system.  Pasco county is talking about cutting teachers, making the ones they keep work without a planning period, and lower pay.  Florida has one of the lowest pay scales for teachers in the nation.  The benefit's that are provided (health, retirement, etc) mad this a halfway decent exchange but Scott is talking about cutting these things as well.  We are also going to figure out a way to get around the class size amendment.  All this leads to less good teachers wanting to work in the state and poorly educated students. 


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#99 : April 14, 2011, 12:22:49 PM

The main thing that I have a problem with is education.  This is one area we can not afford to cut.  Our state wants to push for higher test scores and highly qualified teachers but they do not want to put money into the system.  Pasco county is talking about cutting teachers, making the ones they keep work without a planning period, and lower pay.  Florida has one of the lowest pay scales for teachers in the nation.  The benefit's that are provided (health, retirement, etc) mad this a halfway decent exchange but Scott is talking about cutting these things as well.  We are also going to figure out a way to get around the class size amendment.  All this leads to less good teachers wanting to work in the state and poorly educated students.

Don't you find it unusual that whenever there are cuts suggested in education that the response is always "cutting teachers" or courses offered? I think most of the cuts in education should all be at the administrative level. That is where the real waste of dollars is occurring.

Personally, I think Teachers are not the problem with education. It is accountability that is the problem and the administrative part of education has done a piss poor job in reaching accountability.

Just a minor look at the education that was received in the 60's and 70's compared to today points that more money spent on education has not solved anything.

If you want education to improve there should be minimum proficiencies required in order to advance to the next grade.  If the student does nothing but breathe and Fart in the classroom how should he or she pass the class?  The simple fact is instead of praising teachers that don't allow students to slide through they are punished for flunking kids by socially promoting them no matter what the kid does.

GPA's  are an abomination today.   4.0 should be the highest GPA anyone can ever achieve. It doesn't matter what class they take.

Learning is a process that takes time and this idea is apparently lost on everyone making decisions in public education. Secondly everyone is not of equal intelligence and skill in all areas.

The class size amendment needs to be appealed.   Even with lowered class sizes the performance has deteriorated considerably when classes were not even considered back in the 60's and 70's.

Too many chiefs at the top doing nothing but sucking blood from the system. imo


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#100 : April 16, 2011, 05:14:44 PM

I agree with you about the education issue in Fl.  One problem is that each year the curiculluulm (sp?) gets changed based on a "new " study or "new" politico in power.  There is no concensus on what constitutes good subjects and too much interference by religious groups to change science studies, for instance.

Every year there is someothing new.  This year the FCATs are harder.  That means even more teaching to the test.  While it is laudible to attempt to find an absolute for education accountability its not that simple.  Annual tests should be for the minimum expected of students to pass into the next class.   Yes, I said minimum.
That way kids geared for non-academic instruction can graduate and move into trade schools.  To test the upper limit of ability is far trickier.  Essay writing is a good test.  I have a friend who judges and scores those tests.  According to her an amazing number of kids cannot form thoughts, spell or write a decent sentence.  And she also said you can tell without looking at where the school is which kids are upper iincomed and which are not.  Its that simple.

Lower incomed kids may require draconian measures to get their thinking, reading and writing skills up.  Schools that focus on their needs might need to be created.  But to judge a teacher by better test scores simply makes no sense whatsoever. 
I'm guessing a predictor of kids who might need intervention would be :  one or both parents in jail and being raised by another family memeber, poor behavior in class, obviously not doing required work in classroom or homework, risky behav ior out of school and poor attendence.  Anyone exhibiting these qualities should be put in a different school system designed to raise their skills and awareness of what needed to succeed in society...


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#101 : April 17, 2011, 01:30:12 PM

The main thing that I have a problem with is education.  This is one area we can not afford to cut.  Our state wants to push for higher test scores and highly qualified teachers but they do not want to put money into the system.  Pasco county is talking about cutting teachers, making the ones they keep work without a planning period, and lower pay.  Florida has one of the lowest pay scales for teachers in the nation.  The benefit's that are provided (health, retirement, etc) mad this a halfway decent exchange but Scott is talking about cutting these things as well.  We are also going to figure out a way to get around the class size amendment.  All this leads to less good teachers wanting to work in the state and poorly educated students.

Don't you find it unusual that whenever there are cuts suggested in education that the response is always "cutting teachers" or courses offered? I think most of the cuts in education should all be at the administrative level. That is where the real waste of dollars is occurring.

Too many chiefs at the top doing nothing but sucking blood from the system. imo


BINGO!!!

In Lee County (http://budget.leeschools.net/budget_books/10-11/fy11%20book%20for%20web.pdf) there are 5100 "instructors" which I assume means teachers, but there are 9829 total people on the payroll. Almost half the payroll is NON-teaching jobs. Of the $1.126 billion budget ONLY $454 million goes to instructional salaries. I know damn well you could cut some of that $672 million and never see a difference.

When I went to high school long long ago, we had 1 principal, 1 Asst. Principal, 2 Deans (one for boys-one for girls), and 2 guidance counselors. Now the SAME school has 3 Asst. Principals, 6 Deans (2 for Hispanic, 2 for AA, 2 for everyone else) and 16 guidance councilors 8 school "Resource" Officers (basically off-duty cops paid to just sit around), 4 "special assistance" councilors (whatever the hell that is), 5 off-campus activities coordinators, 4 Title IX activities coordinators, etc.etc. It is bureaucratic insanity!!!

And when I went to HS, over half the graduating class (85% grad rate) went on to college or some type of secondary ed. and now only about 30% of the grads (and only a 71% Grad rate) go on to additional schooling. THREE TIMES AS MANY BUREAUCRATS YIELDING FAR WORSE RESULTS!!!



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#102 : April 17, 2011, 04:30:12 PM

But, but, but... if you eliminate administrator spots then the remaining administrators won't have anyone to supervise and won't be able to justify higher salaries using the flotsam that fill those spots... geez JG? - you're mean.  Union members aren't going to like you.

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

Uncle Stan

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#103 : April 18, 2011, 05:41:58 PM

How many school board members are there in Florida at $31K per year?

Other states like New Jersey, they don't get a nickel. Not even for expenses. I know cause my niece is one.

Learn to disagree without being disagreeable-Ronald Reagan circa 1981

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#104 : April 18, 2011, 05:52:29 PM

This entire thread is exactly what's wrong with this country. The divisive partisan politics has made it impossible to get anything done. The Dems block the Repubs from doing what they need to do. The Repubs block the Dems from doing what they need to do. Nothing gets done.

Does government spending need to be curtailed? Absolutely.
Do cuts in social systems need to be made? Certainly.
Does the corporate tax rate need to be lowered? Yes.

But until you go to the real meat and potatoes of the deficit - I.E. the Bush Tax cuts to the rich (and no, we're not talking about the corporate tax - they're two separate things), the defense budget, Medicare, and yes, Social Security - you're never going to balance the budget.

Neither Obama's or Paul Ryan's budget suggestions make the necessary cuts to do much damage to the deficit - which means we're going to still be talking about this through the 2012 election.

The Republicans think by ending all entitlements that everything will be solved. It won't be. They think the problem is teachers and firefighters and police unions. It's not.

And by the way  - NO ONE CARES. People care more about jobs and the economy than they do about government spending.  Yes, I know one does relate to the other but most people don't understand that.

To me, Obama should start with companies that export their jobs overseas. Significantly lower the corporate tax rate for those companies who don't outsource. Hike it up for those that do. Make it fiscally more economical to employee American workers.

That's a start.

Of course, it will never happen. Too many Republican campaign contributors would be adversely effected.

And there we are....back to the original point - because of party politics - we will never get anything done.

I think the entire political system may be on the verge of collapse. Just look at these Tea Party whack jobs that are getting elected like Bachman.

Some believe the world will end in 2012...it just might if someone like Bachman or Palin get the White House.

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