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CBWx2

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« #180 : August 26, 2012, 03:14:00 PM »

Here's a question for you. Say the anti-choice side get their way, and that a pregnant woman decides to get an abortion in Canada after abortion is deemed illegal in the US. Upon return, does the mother get arrested and tried for murder?

Why do you keep asking patently absurd questions like this?

If I was to take my infant child to Canada and toss it in a dumpster and it died due to exposure, would I not be arrested and charged with murder upon return? We are talking about treating abortion as though it were infanticide, are we not? Why is that an absurd question?

If you were to take your infant child to Canada and kill it, you would have committed a crime in Canada, and would be extradited to Canada for your trial.  You wouldn't be charged and tried in America for something you did in another country.

Addressing your first question - if you went to have a legal abortion in Canada and came back to America, you would have broken no laws in America.  So no, you would not be arrested and tried for murder.  That is why your question is patently absurd.

You are correct if that country has a law against murder. As most do, murdering an infant would get you a charged in pretty much every country.

However, if one US citizen murders another US citizen on foreign land and is not charged in that country, the US can prosecute that individual for murder even though it didn't happen in the US. You can't, for example, take your cheating wife to a country that allows the killing or maiming of women for adultery, commit that act there, and then return to the US and completely escape prosecution just because it was legal there.

So if abortion is classified as murder here, and not in Canada, then the potential for prosecution here is not at all patently absurd, that is of course, if you were to treat abortion as you would any other murder.


dbucfan

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« #181 : August 26, 2012, 03:22:18 PM »

The issue to me is the government funding of abortions, as well as forcing health plans to cover those costs.  And yea, I feel the same way about birth control pills.  Somewhere someone is going to have to be accountable for their decisions.  Call it what you will - removing the cost or penalty of one's actions is not the right way to go.

the issue to me is why do political junkies try and generalize and trivialize a minor occurance like abortion?
Are abortions a big enough drain on our economy to warrant judicial review and regulatory funding? No.
How much gov funding contributed to abortion in 2011? How many abortions were conducted that yr and what was the age range of patients?
I know of a clinic in atl that is staffed by volunteer doctors and they dont generate enough business to stay open more than 3 days a week. Mostly by appt only.
point is, when I hear political talking heads cry over abortion Im thinking they must be distracting from a bigger issue b/c on the ground level, its not really a huge issue. Conservative extremist make it bigger than it really is and this Atkins congressman is a perfect example.
No one is trivializing abortion or birth control.  And since I have already noted I feel folks have to make up their own minds and choices I agree there is no need for judicial or legislative attention let alone funding.

Funding is available via google - including planned parenthood operations.  WIth over 40% of pregnancies being terminated the costs are ever rising.

If doctors want to volunteer, and/or folks want to pay for such operations that is up to them.  That is their choice.

Conservatives extremists, nor liberal extremists, aren't representative of anyone but themselves.  And there are tons of examples of such folks in both of those segments.

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

Biggs3535

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« #182 : August 26, 2012, 03:37:46 PM »

However, if one US citizen murders another US citizen on foreign land and is not charged in that country, the US can prosecute that individual for murder even though it didn't happen in the US. You can't, for example, take your cheating wife to a country that allows the killing or maiming of women for adultery, commit that act there, and then return to the US and completely escape prosecution just because it was legal there.

So if abortion is classified as murder here, and not in Canada, then the potential for prosecution here is not at all patently absurd, that is of course, if you were to treat abortion as you would any other murder.

I'm no legal expert, so a quick Google search returned this:

http://www.lawqa.com/qa/who-prosecutes-if-one-us-citizen-murders-another-us-citizen-in-foreign-country


It seems you are attempting to go to extremes with your questions about trying those who have already had an abortion or those that would go to another country for abortions with murder.  So again, more than likely the mother wouldn't be charged w/murder, but as an accessory - if charged at all, which seems unlikely in this newest hypothetical.


CBWx2

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« #183 : August 26, 2012, 04:05:13 PM »

However, if one US citizen murders another US citizen on foreign land and is not charged in that country, the US can prosecute that individual for murder even though it didn't happen in the US. You can't, for example, take your cheating wife to a country that allows the killing or maiming of women for adultery, commit that act there, and then return to the US and completely escape prosecution just because it was legal there.

So if abortion is classified as murder here, and not in Canada, then the potential for prosecution here is not at all patently absurd, that is of course, if you were to treat abortion as you would any other murder.

I'm no legal expert, so a quick Google search returned this:

http://www.lawqa.com/qa/who-prosecutes-if-one-us-citizen-murders-another-us-citizen-in-foreign-country


It seems you are attempting to go to extremes with your questions about trying those who have already had an abortion or those that would go to another country for abortions with murder.  So again, more than likely the mother wouldn't be charged w/murder, but as an accessory - if charged at all, which seems unlikely in this newest hypothetical.


Quote
a) Definition.— In this section, “national of the United States” has the meaning stated in section 101(a)(22) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(22)).

(b) Offense.— A person who, being a national of the United States, kills or attempts to kill a national of the United States while such national is outside the United States but within the jurisdiction of another country shall be punished as provided under sections 1111, 1112, and 1113.

(c) Limitations on Prosecution.—

(1) No prosecution may be instituted against any person under this section except upon the written approval of the Attorney General, the Deputy Attorney General, or an Assistant Attorney General, which function of approving prosecutions may not be delegated. No prosecution shall be approved if prosecution has been previously undertaken by a foreign country for the same conduct.

(2) No prosecution shall be approved under this section unless the Attorney General, in consultation with the Secretary of State, determines that the conduct took place in a country in which the person is no longer present, and the country lacks the ability to lawfully secure the person’s return. A determination by the Attorney General under this paragraph is not subject to judicial review.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1119

In other words, if a US national kills another US national overseas, the only time the US Attorney General cannot bring charges against the perpetrator is if the nation in which the crime is committed levies charges of their own. If they do, then the US cannot supersede their jurisdiction. If they do not, then it's fair game to extradite them or prosecute them upon their return.

So unless Canada decides to start prosecuting American mothers for receiving abortions, then the US would absolutely have the power to prosecute for murder any person who was caught having received an abortion, even if it was in another country. They may not be able to prosecute the doctors, but they can certainly prosecute the mother.

Also, why does the mother only get an accomplice charge? Because the doctor is committing the actual murder? Because if you hire a hitman to kill someone and they succeed, you can still be charged with murder, FYI.
« : August 26, 2012, 04:08:33 PM CBWx2 »


Biggs3535

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« #184 : August 26, 2012, 04:19:27 PM »

the US would absolutely have the power to prosecute for murder any person who was caught having received an abortion, even if it was in another country. They may not be able to prosecute the doctors, but they can certainly prosecute the mother.

And how likely is this to happen?

About as high of a percentage of the abortions from rape and incest, I would imagine.  Which is why the question is patently absurd, along with this thread and Akin's comments.


VinBucFan

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« #185 : August 26, 2012, 04:57:53 PM »

However, if one US citizen murders another US citizen on foreign land and is not charged in that country, the US can prosecute that individual for murder even though it didn't happen in the US. You can't, for example, take your cheating wife to a country that allows the killing or maiming of women for adultery, commit that act there, and then return to the US and completely escape prosecution just because it was legal there.

So if abortion is classified as murder here, and not in Canada, then the potential for prosecution here is not at all patently absurd, that is of course, if you were to treat abortion as you would any other murder.

I'm no legal expert, so a quick Google search returned this:

http://www.lawqa.com/qa/who-prosecutes-if-one-us-citizen-murders-another-us-citizen-in-foreign-country


It seems you are attempting to go to extremes with your questions about trying those who have already had an abortion or those that would go to another country for abortions with murder.  So again, more than likely the mother wouldn't be charged w/murder, but as an accessory - if charged at all, which seems unlikely in this newest hypothetical.


Quote
a) Definition.— In this section, “national of the United States” has the meaning stated in section 101(a)(22) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(22)).

(b) Offense.— A person who, being a national of the United States, kills or attempts to kill a national of the United States while such national is outside the United States but within the jurisdiction of another country shall be punished as provided under sections 1111, 1112, and 1113.

(c) Limitations on Prosecution.—

(1) No prosecution may be instituted against any person under this section except upon the written approval of the Attorney General, the Deputy Attorney General, or an Assistant Attorney General, which function of approving prosecutions may not be delegated. No prosecution shall be approved if prosecution has been previously undertaken by a foreign country for the same conduct.

(2) No prosecution shall be approved under this section unless the Attorney General, in consultation with the Secretary of State, determines that the conduct took place in a country in which the person is no longer present, and the country lacks the ability to lawfully secure the person’s return. A determination by the Attorney General under this paragraph is not subject to judicial review.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1119

then the US would absolutely have the power to prosecute for murder any person who was caught having received an abortion, even if it was in another country. They may not be able to prosecute the doctors, but they can certainly prosecute the mother.

Man, depending on one's perspective, you are either funny or dangerous when you start quoting stuff.

The Code you quote above does not mesh with your summary in bold.  As you are prone to do, you are straying way outside your knowledge base and,as a result, mixing concepts. The US  does not have absolute power to prosecute someone (including a US citizen) commiting a crime in another country. The US goverment does not even have absolute power to prosecute a US citizen commiting a crime in this country.


CBWx2

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« #186 : August 26, 2012, 05:15:57 PM »

However, if one US citizen murders another US citizen on foreign land and is not charged in that country, the US can prosecute that individual for murder even though it didn't happen in the US. You can't, for example, take your cheating wife to a country that allows the killing or maiming of women for adultery, commit that act there, and then return to the US and completely escape prosecution just because it was legal there.

So if abortion is classified as murder here, and not in Canada, then the potential for prosecution here is not at all patently absurd, that is of course, if you were to treat abortion as you would any other murder.

I'm no legal expert, so a quick Google search returned this:

http://www.lawqa.com/qa/who-prosecutes-if-one-us-citizen-murders-another-us-citizen-in-foreign-country


It seems you are attempting to go to extremes with your questions about trying those who have already had an abortion or those that would go to another country for abortions with murder.  So again, more than likely the mother wouldn't be charged w/murder, but as an accessory - if charged at all, which seems unlikely in this newest hypothetical.


Quote
a) Definition.— In this section, “national of the United States” has the meaning stated in section 101(a)(22) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(22)).

(b) Offense.— A person who, being a national of the United States, kills or attempts to kill a national of the United States while such national is outside the United States but within the jurisdiction of another country shall be punished as provided under sections 1111, 1112, and 1113.

(c) Limitations on Prosecution.—

(1) No prosecution may be instituted against any person under this section except upon the written approval of the Attorney General, the Deputy Attorney General, or an Assistant Attorney General, which function of approving prosecutions may not be delegated. No prosecution shall be approved if prosecution has been previously undertaken by a foreign country for the same conduct.

(2) No prosecution shall be approved under this section unless the Attorney General, in consultation with the Secretary of State, determines that the conduct took place in a country in which the person is no longer present, and the country lacks the ability to lawfully secure the person’s return. A determination by the Attorney General under this paragraph is not subject to judicial review.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1119

then the US would absolutely have the power to prosecute for murder any person who was caught having received an abortion, even if it was in another country. They may not be able to prosecute the doctors, but they can certainly prosecute the mother.

Man, depending on one's perspective, you are either funny or dangerous when you start quoting stuff.

The Code you quote above does not mesh with your summary in bold.  As you are prone to do, you are straying way outside your knowledge base and,as a result, mixing concepts. The US  does not have absolute power to prosecute someone (including a US citizen) commiting a crime in another country. The US goverment does not even have absolute power to prosecute a US citizen commiting a crime in this country.

And as you are prone to do, you picked just enough of a segment of my statement to allow for you to take it out of context. I didn't say that they had absolute power to prosecute anyone committing a crime anywhere. Quote where I said what you are claiming I did in an entire, coherent statement rather than an incomplete statement, or take your intellectually dishonest analysis elsewhere. Perhaps to a Bucs game, where you can fight someone.


CBWx2

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« #187 : August 26, 2012, 05:30:05 PM »

the US would absolutely have the power to prosecute for murder any person who was caught having received an abortion, even if it was in another country. They may not be able to prosecute the doctors, but they can certainly prosecute the mother.

And how likely is this to happen?

About as high of a percentage of the abortions from rape and incest, I would imagine.  Which is why the question is patently absurd, along with this thread and Akin's comments.

It doesn't matter how likely it is to happen, it matters that you are clearly advocating it to happen. At least I assume that you are, given that abortion is murder in your eyes, thus is subject to the same type of legal repercussions of any other type of murder.

The bottom line is, if abortion is really murder, then simply accepting the fact that another country doesn't classify it as murder is at odds with how we treat other murders in this country. An American killing his wife, who is also an American, in a country that allows the killing of wives on certain grounds is still subject to prosecution in this country. So if you are so willing to accept that no murder was committed as long as the abortion happened in a place where it is legal, then clearly you accept the fact that it is a subjective classification, or in other words, is not really murder, just classified as such within our borders. Which begs the question, why in the world would you advocate charging people with murder within our borders for something that you fully admit is not murder if done elsewhere?


Biggs3535

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« #188 : August 26, 2012, 05:45:14 PM »

It doesn't matter how likely it is to happen, it matters that you are clearly advocating it to happen. At least I assume that you are, given that abortion is murder in your eyes, thus is subject to the same type of legal repercussions of any other type of murder.

I'm clearly advocating for someone who does something that is legal in one country to be prosecuted for it here?  How in the hell did you get from any of my statements?

What I would be advocating is making abortion illegal.  Any other of your jumps in logic/faulty assumptions and the patently absurd questions that follow are horribly out of place.



why in the world would you advocate charging people with murder within our borders for something that you fully admit is not murder if done elsewhere?

FYI, this is another logic leap/faulty assumption.  You're so wound up, you are inventing arguments that were never made.


spartan

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« #189 : August 26, 2012, 06:13:28 PM »

the US would absolutely have the power to prosecute for murder any person who was caught having received an abortion, even if it was in another country. They may not be able to prosecute the doctors, but they can certainly prosecute the mother.

And how likely is this to happen?

About as high of a percentage of the abortions from rape and incest, I would imagine.  Which is why the question is patently absurd, along with this thread and Akin's comments.

It doesn't matter how likely it is to happen, it matters that you are clearly advocating it to happen. At least I assume that you are, given that abortion is murder in your eyes, thus is subject to the same type of legal repercussions of any other type of murder.

The bottom line is, if abortion is really murder, then simply accepting the fact that another country doesn't classify it as murder is at odds with how we treat other murders in this country. An American killing his wife, who is also an American, in a country that allows the killing of wives on certain grounds is still subject to prosecution in this country. So if you are so willing to accept that no murder was committed as long as the abortion happened in a place where it is legal, then clearly you accept the fact that it is a subjective classification, or in other words, is not really murder, just classified as such within our borders. Which begs the question, why in the world would you advocate charging people with murder within our borders for something that you fully admit is not murder if done elsewhere?

I am sorry but I am beginning to jump on the Biggs bandwagon here, because there is a big difference between a hypothetical and stupid, and right now you are entering into the realms of the absurd. I try to give you a lot of latitude because we are on opposite sides of the political and social spectrum, but right now you are being downright dumb with this murder "hypothetical." Sorry man but I had to say it.

CBWx2

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« #190 : August 26, 2012, 06:44:18 PM »

It doesn't matter how likely it is to happen, it matters that you are clearly advocating it to happen. At least I assume that you are, given that abortion is murder in your eyes, thus is subject to the same type of legal repercussions of any other type of murder.

I'm clearly advocating for someone who does something that is legal in one country to be prosecuted for it here?  How in the hell did you get from any of my statements?

What I would be advocating is making abortion illegal.  Any other of your jumps in logic/faulty assumptions and the patently absurd questions that follow are horribly out of place.

Made illegal on what grounds, Biggs?

why in the world would you advocate charging people with murder within our borders for something that you fully admit is not murder if done elsewhere?

FYI, this is another logic leap/faulty assumption.  You're so wound up, you are inventing arguments that were never made.

I'm leaping to the conclusion that you want abortion outlawed on the grounds that it is murder?

There have been plenty of cultures throughout time where murder was a crime, whether that culture was religious or not.  To the Anti-Abortion crowd, abortion is murder of an unborn baby, not a woman exercising her right to do whatever she wants to her body.

Murder is murder, Biggs, unless it is something else. So is abortion murder, or is it something else? If it's murder, then it is an unlawful act in the eyes of the US government to kill a US national in this country or a foreign one. If you concede that it is not an illegal act in another country as long as they deem it as legal, then it's not murder, it's something else.


CBWx2

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« #191 : August 26, 2012, 06:47:21 PM »

I am sorry but I am beginning to jump on the Biggs bandwagon here, because there is a big difference between a hypothetical and stupid, and right now you are entering into the realms of the absurd. I try to give you a lot of latitude because we are on opposite sides of the political and social spectrum, but right now you are being downright dumb with this murder "hypothetical." Sorry man but I had to say it.

Starting to? Was there a point in this discussion where you weren't on the Biggs bandwagon? No disrespect spartan, but let's be real here. You haven't been on the fence about any of this.


olafberserker

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« #192 : August 26, 2012, 06:50:40 PM »

Sorry, that's just a B$ explanation for me.  She shouldn't get to play "God" just because she didn't take the proper precautions.
Wether she should or shouldn't doesn't matter. What matters is the serenity to accept the things you can't control like some pregant women getting an abortion. If a women WANTS to get an abortion, law or no law, she's gonna get an abortion.

True, we should probably get rid of all laws then

Except with other laws it can be proven that someone committed a crime.

lol, you really are not very bright are you?   If abortion was illegal, it would be a crime ........

olafberserker

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« #193 : August 26, 2012, 06:58:47 PM »

It doesn't matter how likely it is to happen, it matters that you are clearly advocating it to happen. At least I assume that you are, given that abortion is murder in your eyes, thus is subject to the same type of legal repercussions of any other type of murder.

I'm clearly advocating for someone who does something that is legal in one country to be prosecuted for it here?  How in the hell did you get from any of my statements?

What I would be advocating is making abortion illegal.  Any other of your jumps in logic/faulty assumptions and the patently absurd questions that follow are horribly out of place.



why in the world would you advocate charging people with murder within our borders for something that you fully admit is not murder if done elsewhere?

FYI, this is another logic leap/faulty assumption.  You're so wound up, you are inventing arguments that were never made.

 :o

Nothing new there

Biggs3535

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« #194 : August 26, 2012, 07:10:20 PM »

In case I haven't been clear enough, I'm also advocating for the guys from Team America: World Police to travel throughout the globe to seek out all women who have abortions, or have had an abortion at any point in the past, and bring them back to try and convict them of murder-one.  Their sentence will, obviously, be death.  And I'm also advocating their death by a firing squad of one:  Biggs3535.

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