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olafberserker

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#75 : April 23, 2013, 02:40:18 PM

And this is where threads get derailed.  Vin can't "win" an argument and lord forbid there be a discussion so he puts words in someone's mouth and pretends they said something they didn't.  Worst poster on the board hands down other than the comedic value.  Carry on.

olafberserker

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#76 : April 23, 2013, 02:43:47 PM

And that is what feeds the argument that such legislation is advertised to be of help in preventing the crimes - while in essence it will keep honest people honest isn't it?

It will make things more diffcult for criminals too.  There is a reason we do not sell ready-made pressure cooker bombs at WalMart.  Can some one make one? Yes, but it makes sense to make it more difficult.  Right now there is NO barrier to buying a gun. I could get my cousin who has a felony conviction and go online and he could buy an AR-15

by the way, guns are alos used in crimes of passion and in suicides, making it tougher -- while not unreasonably trampling rights -- is simple common sense
Difficult is an overly strong description.  Not even annoying - just changing the marketplace a bit.  Now - rather than talking about pressure cookers, let's just agree making it a little bit more difficult as you said is the maximum benefit of this proposal.  Because when this law is passed your cousin the felon will only be changing his marketplace.  And every law abiding citizen who wants the gun of their choice will now be following and extended path that will do nothing more than extend paperwork and time investments for honest people.
This.  Doesn't really save lives which is what is being sold

VinBucFan

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#77 : April 23, 2013, 02:44:12 PM

And this is where threads get derailed.  Vin can't "win" an argument and lord forbid there be a discussion so he puts words in someone's mouth and pretends they said something they didn't.  Worst poster on the board hands down other than the comedic value.  Carry on.

actually, the "worst poster" is someone who gets so angry at another theat they stalk him off the boards . ..  just saying . .   so you carry on . . .. just as I have, learned a few things too

Biggs3535

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#78 : April 23, 2013, 02:48:43 PM

And this is where threads get derailed.  Vin can't "win" an argument and lord forbid there be a discussion so he puts words in someone's mouth and pretends they said something they didn't.  Worst poster on the board hands down other than the comedic value.  Carry on.

actually, the "worst poster" is someone who gets so angry at another theat they stalk him off the boards . ..  just saying . .   so you carry on . . .. just as I have, learned a few things too

Bwhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

I was stalked by my Pizza guy the other day.  He knew my name and where I lived, yet I knew nothing of him.  I've contacted the authorities and an investigation is pending.


CBWx2

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#79 : April 23, 2013, 02:49:23 PM

The equivalency is that making a 30 year old prove they are old enough to buy alcohol isn't keeping 16 year olds from getting their hands on it.

It isn't? If you were a 16 year old that wanted to drink and got wind that the local liquor store didn't card, would you still look for "back alley" ways to get beer, or would you just buy it from the local store that you know doesn't card?

What does it matter if the 16 year old is going to get it either way?

Difficulty and accessibility actually do make a difference. There are always going to be ways in which 16 year olds can get their hands on alcohol. They can steal it from their folks, they could pay a bum or other willing adult to buy it for them, etc. But in cases like that, they are having to go to greater lengths to acquire it and are assuming a certain degree of risk. On most occasions, there might not be a willing adult, or alcohol in the home, or perhaps the parents notice the missing alcohol and the kid then gets busted for it.

What you are suggesting is that the same amount of kids would be drinking the same amount of alcohol if we were to simply remove these difficulties and allow them unhindered access. Not only does that fly in the face of logic, it flies in the face of reality.


VinBucFan

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#80 : April 23, 2013, 02:49:24 PM

And that is what feeds the argument that such legislation is advertised to be of help in preventing the crimes - while in essence it will keep honest people honest isn't it?

It will make things more diffcult for criminals too.  There is a reason we do not sell ready-made pressure cooker bombs at WalMart.  Can some one make one? Yes, but it makes sense to make it more difficult.  Right now there is NO barrier to buying a gun. I could get my cousin who has a felony conviction and go online and he could buy an AR-15

by the way, guns are alos used in crimes of passion and in suicides, making it tougher -- while not unreasonably trampling rights -- is simple common sense
Difficult is an overly strong description.  Not even annoying - just changing the marketplace a bit. 

That is simply not true, but even if it were true I am going to choose save even one life over worrying that a gun owner is inconvenience by paperwork.  More important than that though, there is no constitutional right to be free from paperwork.  You can NOT drive a car -- needed for every day lif in this country -- without taking and passing a test and carrying a license and having insurance and obeying a bunch of laws designed to protect people.  You can buy a gun INSTANTLY and not just a gun, but the equvalent of a jet fueled drag racer (to keep the car analogy) . .  no test, no paperwork, no license ... NADA. ZIP . . . ziltch

dbucfan

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#81 : April 23, 2013, 02:49:42 PM

And this is where threads get derailed.  Vin can't "win" an argument and lord forbid there be a discussion so he puts words in someone's mouth and pretends they said something they didn't.  Worst poster on the board hands down other than the comedic value.  Carry on.
Before barbs are exchanged - I am more asking what the anticipated benefit is.  If it is to make it more 'difficult' compared to something that has no difficulty, and will basically affect only honest folks then we are chasing out proverbial tales.  If there is something beneficial I am curious as to what it is.  Right not the folks that go to stores and buy guns go through a background check.  Some folks who go to gun shows have background checks done, and some evidently don't.  (I had to ask some friends who own guns - they told me of the background checks at some gun shows).  My friends also told me of markets where one can buy without background checks - and the fact such opportunities are not hard to find.

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

VinBucFan

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#82 : April 23, 2013, 02:50:37 PM

And this is where threads get derailed.  Vin can't "win" an argument and lord forbid there be a discussion so he puts words in someone's mouth and pretends they said something they didn't.  Worst poster on the board hands down other than the comedic value.  Carry on.

actually, the "worst poster" is someone who gets so angry at another theat they stalk him off the boards . ..  just saying . .   so you carry on . . .. just as I have, learned a few things too

Bwhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

I was stalked by my Pizza guy the other day.  He knew my name and where I lived, yet I knew nothing of him.  I've contacted the authorities and an investigation is pending.


zzzzzzzz .. . . .zzzzzzzz. . . . . .zzzzzzz. . . .

too blunt an instrument to draw me in beyond poking fun at you briefly Buggsy

VinBucFan

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#83 : April 23, 2013, 02:52:40 PM

And this is where threads get derailed.  Vin can't "win" an argument and lord forbid there be a discussion so he puts words in someone's mouth and pretends they said something they didn't.  Worst poster on the board hands down other than the comedic value.  Carry on.
Before barbs are exchanged - I am more asking what the anticipated benefit is.  If it is to make it more 'difficult' compared to something that has no difficulty, and will basically affect only honest folks then we are chasing out proverbial tales.  If there is something beneficial I am curious as to what it is.  Right not the folks that go to stores and buy guns go through a background check.  Some folks who go to gun shows have background checks done, and some evidently don't.  (I had to ask some friends who own guns - they told me of the background checks at some gun shows).  My friends also told me of markets where one can buy without background checks - and the fact such opportunities are not hard to find.

click on this link:

http://www.armslist.com/classifieds/tampa/guns

You can have an AR-15 right now.  All you have to do is "agree" to the statement up front.  simple

Manufacturer:Armalite Caliber:223/5.56 NATO Action:Semi-automatic Firearm Type:Rifle Flag |
ScamSpam/InappropriateOver-pricedMiscategorizedDealer ListingUnresponsiveReport illegal firearms activity to 1-800-ATF-GUNS or your local police department.
Edit | Favorite 
I have an Armalite AR-15 for sale. Has plenty of custom parts: stock, grip, rails, colapsible iron sites, red dot site. Comes with the Osrey Defense piston system installed, and the parts to convert back. Purchased brand new a couple of months ago, has about 50 rounds fired through it, basically mint. Asking $2100 which is what i paid, will take best offer. Have lots of additional pics for interested buyers

spartan

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#84 : April 23, 2013, 03:00:08 PM

Cool vin, thanks for that.

VinBucFan

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#85 : April 23, 2013, 03:01:08 PM

Cool vin, thanks for that.

 :)

dbucfan

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#86 : April 23, 2013, 03:09:24 PM

And this is where threads get derailed.  Vin can't "win" an argument and lord forbid there be a discussion so he puts words in someone's mouth and pretends they said something they didn't.  Worst poster on the board hands down other than the comedic value.  Carry on.
Before barbs are exchanged - I am more asking what the anticipated benefit is.  If it is to make it more 'difficult' compared to something that has no difficulty, and will basically affect only honest folks then we are chasing out proverbial tales.  If there is something beneficial I am curious as to what it is.  Right not the folks that go to stores and buy guns go through a background check.  Some folks who go to gun shows have background checks done, and some evidently don't.  (I had to ask some friends who own guns - they told me of the background checks at some gun shows).  My friends also told me of markets where one can buy without background checks - and the fact such opportunities are not hard to find.

click on this link:

http://www.armslist.com/classifieds/tampa/guns

You can have an AR-15 right now.  All you have to do is "agree" to the statement up front.  simple

Manufacturer:Armalite Caliber:223/5.56 NATO Action:Semi-automatic Firearm Type:Rifle Flag |
ScamSpam/InappropriateOver-pricedMiscategorizedDealer ListingUnresponsiveReport illegal firearms activity to 1-800-ATF-GUNS or your local police department.
Edit | Favorite 
I have an Armalite AR-15 for sale. Has plenty of custom parts: stock, grip, rails, colapsible iron sites, red dot site. Comes with the Osrey Defense piston system installed, and the parts to convert back. Purchased brand new a couple of months ago, has about 50 rounds fired through it, basically mint. Asking $2100 which is what i paid, will take best offer. Have lots of additional pics for interested buyers
Again -  I am more asking what the anticipated benefit is.  If it is to make it more 'difficult' compared to something that has no difficulty, and will basically affect only honest folks then we are chasing out proverbial tales.  If there is something beneficial I am curious as to what it is.

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

CBWx2

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#87 : April 23, 2013, 03:20:53 PM

Again -  I am more asking what the anticipated benefit is.  If it is to make it more 'difficult' compared to something that has no difficulty, and will basically affect only honest folks then we are chasing out proverbial tales.  If there is something beneficial I am curious as to what it is.

Because it is a false assertion that only honest folk will incur more difficulty. That implies that criminals are not simply currently shopping at the same places that "honest folk" are shopping at to buy their guns. If I am a gang member with a criminal background, and currently go to the same place as "honest folk" to acquire my weapons, and then find out that they are now doing background checks, I now have to find a new, less easy way in which to acquire my weapons. Therefor, your assertion that only "honest folks" will be burdened by the law is patently false.

You can make the arbitrary argument that it's still easy to acquire things on the black market, but I'm fairly certain that there isn't a single criminal out there that would argue that it's just as easy to acquire firearms on the black market as it is on the white market. Black market arms dealers tend to try and keep low profiles, whereas gun shows typically advertise on TV, radio, and in the Sunday paper.


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#88 : April 23, 2013, 03:24:51 PM

If it is to make it more 'difficult' compared to something that has no difficulty, and will basically affect only honest folks then we are chasing out proverbial tales. 

the "and" makes no sense. In other words, the conclusion you draw from the premise makes no sense.  If something is MORE DIFFICULT . .  it is so for everyone so it would not "only affect honest folks." If there is no difficulty for anyone to buy a gun now and it is made more difficult for everyone . . it becomes more difficult for everyone.

 A felon wanting a gun can still get one, but he/she probably needs another person to break the law with him/her.  The more people that have to break the law and the more links in a chain the better.  Will it prevent ALL gun crime . .  absolutely not, but in general (and you can find the data in the other gun threads) the more restrictive a civilzed, western country's gun laws the less gun violence.  There are exceptions and many factors at play, but in general that is the truth.


VinBucFan

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#89 : April 23, 2013, 03:29:47 PM

Again -  I am more asking what the anticipated benefit is.  If it is to make it more 'difficult' compared to something that has no difficulty, and will basically affect only honest folks then we are chasing out proverbial tales.  If there is something beneficial I am curious as to what it is.

Because it is a false assertion that only honest folk will incur more difficulty. That implies that criminals are not simply currently shopping at the same places that "honest folk" are shopping at to buy their guns. If I am a gang member with a criminal background, and currently go to the same place as "honest folk" to acquire my weapons, and then find out that they are now doing background checks, I now have to find a new, less easy way in which to acquire my weapons. Therefor, your assertion that only "honest folks" will be burdened by the law is patently false.

If CBW and I agree, then it must be true.
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