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SunnyD

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#900 : December 12, 2012, 11:32:45 PM

My only fear is if he blows up next season, is bitter towards Tampa Management, and forces his way out.

Then we're back to square one.

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#901 : December 12, 2012, 11:37:21 PM

Then again. Flacco was put in the exact same situation that looms for Freeman.

And he has done anything but "blow up"

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#902 : December 12, 2012, 11:41:03 PM

like i said, 10-12.....and maybe more if you take 'potential' into account.

I agree. If he has a decent year next season, he will ask for more that what his final year is on his contract, which maxes out at  $9.76 mil.

There is no reason financially to resign him early. The risk that we might be signing just an average QB, outweighs the risk that he would get his feelings hurt.

"feeeeeelings, whoa whoa whoa, feeeeelings........"

Screw that....can't lets feelings get in the way of doing business!! Hell, the Saints tagged Brees.

-------------------------------------------------------
   

 I thought Lovie said he wanted quickness & speed, even at the QB position?

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#903 : December 12, 2012, 11:48:51 PM

For funsies

"After the season, the Chargers offered Brees a 5-year, $50 million contract that paid $2 million in base salary the first year and the rest heavily based on performance incentives. Brees evaluated the incentive-based offer as a sign of no confidence by the Chargers and promptly demanded the salary a top 5 "franchise" quarterback would receive."

"Brees signed a 6-year, $60 million deal with the Saints on March 14, 2006."

Dolorous Jason

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#904 : December 13, 2012, 07:49:24 AM

There is no reason to pay him before his contract is up.

That being said, I still think some one is going to pay him $10mil annually.

There is a reason , if you want to have salary cap left to spend on other things.

Franchise QB's aren't exactly cheap once thier contract runs out  , ask the Saints. Not saying Freeman is Brees , but what if you waited one more season and he became Brees ? You could have had him locked in at a much more reasonable price for 4 more years , and instead you will have to wreck the cap.

 I say take the gamble. Freeman has proven he's good enough to win with at the very least. There's no use starting over with a rookie QB at this point , simply because you want to chase the next Tom Brady ( who may never come ) ... and Vjax isn't getting any younger while you try it.

What is your point? I was wrong? Ok. You win. I was wrong.

           

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#905 : December 13, 2012, 09:02:54 AM

Eli is different era of football???  Ridiculous!!! Not only is not a different era it's the same system.  This is not an excuse it's reality this offense he is running is completely different than anything he has ever run.  Route concepts takes two tango Wr and QB on the same page. Eli's first two years in this system 56 and 57% it wasn't till year three that he got to 60% completion rate. 

My intent was never to make a case that Josh is a Top 10 QB right now.  My point is he has shown enough that a case can be made for him to be extended this year.  It will be a lot cheaper to do the deal now then next year.  If you want proof we have a scenario playing out right now with Flacco.  I don't think anyone here would call Flacco elite, but he will get a hell of a pay day from the Ravens.  Unless they choose to start over at the QB position. They could have paid Flacco last year for a lot less. 

At the end of next year we will have a clear vision of Josh.  I don't see how his numbers go down next year with a second year in the same systemMartin, Jackson, Williams and Nicks, Joseph back on the line.  So that would put Josh around 30 TD passes and a dozen picks. Can a team or have you ever heard of team closing the door on a QB that threw back to back 30 TD seasons?  And I know the argument the Freeman bashers can't stand who would be just turning 26.  Does anyone think the Bucs will close the door?  I don't. 

So, if you don't close the door sign him this offseason it will be cheaper.

Yes.

The rule changes that made it easier for teams to pass was in the offseason between the '06-'07 season, Eli already had 3 years in by then.  You're also not taking into account that the real impact of those changes didn't happen until the following season.  So, Eli didn't really benefit from those rule changes in his first 4 seasons while Freeman has because he didn't come in until the '09 season.  Like I mentioned earlier in the post with the Bree comparison, you need to compare the players performances to their peers in the same time frame.  Drew Brees in his first 60 starts, ranks just inside the top 10 of passers.... Freeman is just outside the top 15.  Compare Eli's first 4 season numbers vs the league and see how he ranks and then compare Freeman vs the rest of the league.  Freeman over the last 3.5 seasons ranks in the middle of the pack vs his peers... that means he's average.  You don't extend "average" at the QB position early!  Like I also said earlier, since 2007... these are the QB's that have played in the Super Bowl: Eli, Brady, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Brees, Peyton, and Warner.  Notice... there's NO "average" QB's in that list.  In a passing league, you need a really good QB.  Last I saw, average <> really good.

TBayXXXVII

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#906 : December 13, 2012, 09:11:04 AM

For funsies

"After the season, the Chargers offered Brees a 5-year, $50 million contract that paid $2 million in base salary the first year and the rest heavily based on performance incentives. Brees evaluated the incentive-based offer as a sign of no confidence by the Chargers and promptly demanded the salary a top 5 "franchise" quarterback would receive."

"Brees signed a 6-year, $60 million deal with the Saints on March 14, 2006."

The Chargers had to do that because they'd already drafted Rivers and paid him a boat load of jack.  In today's draft finance system, things are different, the league is also different too.  Meaning, if a QB in today's NFL has a season like Brees did in '04, there's no way that team would be picking in the top 5.  Brees ranked in the top 7 in completion pct, Y/A, TD's, rating, and INT's.  A QB who does that today... reguardless of the caliber of his defense, will still win at least 8 games.

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#907 : December 13, 2012, 09:12:38 AM

Maybe after Bennetts interview, people finally realize how 'smart' it is to get into a situation in which you have to franchise tag a guy, you are unsure about being top5 anytime soon, to keep him from testing  the FA market.

And this is what most likely will happen with Freeman. I doubt we will know about him being top5 after next year, but then we prolly have no other choice but franchise tag him, overpay him long term or getting nothing, no QB no draft picks.
Now is the time to get a top10 QB for what he is worth. Next year we will overpay for such a QB.

I think its safe to say Freeman will not suck, he will always be better than any FA or rookie QB short time, always better than his alternatives. I have my doubts him being a top5 anytime soon, maybe never.
If you are sure about him NEVER ever being elite, TRADE him NOW. Now he still has value for us.

Waiting until next year will just work if Freeman will be great by then(or you are sure about him being one in future), but isn't this what you are doubting? You can not really overpay a top5 QB, he is worth a franchise tag(18+).
I would not even argue about NOW being the time getting him cheaper, because if Freeman turns out to be elite, extending him now might make him holdout in a few years.
: December 13, 2012, 09:17:21 AM QaZ

JavaRay

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#908 : December 13, 2012, 09:22:32 AM

Who would ever franchise Bennett?


QaZ

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#909 : December 13, 2012, 09:24:44 AM

Who would ever franchise Bennett?

exactly what i am saying

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#910 : December 13, 2012, 09:28:25 AM

The Bucs franchised Chidi Ahanatu in the past, so I guess it's possible.


QaZ

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#911 : December 13, 2012, 09:45:08 AM


Yes.

The rule changes that made it easier for teams to pass was in the offseason between the '06-'07 season, Eli already had 3 years in by then.  You're also not taking into account that the real impact of those changes didn't happen until the following season.  So, Eli didn't really benefit from those rule changes in his first 4 seasons while Freeman has because he didn't come in until the '09 season.  Like I mentioned earlier in the post with the Bree comparison, you need to compare the players performances to their peers in the same time frame.  Drew Brees in his first 60 starts, ranks just inside the top 10 of passers.... Freeman is just outside the top 15.  Compare Eli's first 4 season numbers vs the league and see how he ranks and then compare Freeman vs the rest of the league.  Freeman over the last 3.5 seasons ranks in the middle of the pack vs his peers... that means he's average.  You don't extend "average" at the QB position early!  Like I also said earlier, since 2007... these are the QB's that have played in the Super Bowl: Eli, Brady, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Brees, Peyton, and Warner.  Notice... there's NO "average" QB's in that list.  In a passing league, you need a really good QB.  Last I saw, average <> really good.

I saw Eli twice in the SB, and his stats suck, because he is inconsistent. Where are his top10 QBR season, his top10 INT season etc? Looking at SB appearences mixs up cause and effect, QB play and team accomplishments. Yes great teams are separated by their QB play, but where is the proof of a great QB winning on a bad team, only because of him? The QB being the most important player on a team? I have no doubts about, improvements here improve your team more than any improvement on any other position. But this leverage works the other way around too, with bad QBs. More reason to not gamble here.
Btw last year could have been Flacco vs Smith, and it did not take better QB play to happen.
Our chances on improvement are alot higher on other positions of this team, like pass defense, alot easier/cheaper to get better here. Talk about cheap leverage here.  Lets see how Freeman performs on an atleast average team. So far i did not see many bad teams in the SB. And Brady and Peyton still are without a ring when not supported much by defense.

TBayXXXVII

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#912 : December 13, 2012, 09:49:32 AM

Maybe after Bennetts interview, people finally realize how 'smart' it is to get into a situation in which you have to franchise tag a guy, you are unsure about being top5 anytime soon, to keep him from testing  the FA market.

And this is what most likely will happen with Freeman. I doubt we will know about him being top5 after next year, but then we prolly have no other choice but franchise tag him, overpay him long term or getting nothing, no QB no draft picks.
Now is the time to get a top10 QB for what he is worth. Next year we will overpay for such a QB.

I think its safe to say Freeman will not suck, he will always be better than any FA or rookie QB short time, always better than his alternatives. I have my doubts him being a top5 anytime soon, maybe never.
If you are sure about him NEVER ever being elite, TRADE him NOW. Now he still has value for us.

Waiting until next year will just work if Freeman will be great by then(or you are sure about him being one in future), but isn't this what you are doubting? You can not really overpay a top5 QB, he is worth a franchise tag(18+).
I would not even argue about NOW being the time getting him cheaper, because if Freeman turns out to be elite, extending him now might make him holdout in a few years.

Let me ask you this, what makes you think that after this year Freeman will sign a team friendly long term contract?

The biggest issue for me on this whole topic is that some people think that Freeman will sign whatever Dominik puts in front of him.  Some of you people are scared that he might walk if Dominik waits to franchise him... yet you aren't scared that Freeman might walk if you 'insult' him with a weak contract offer.  This is baffling to me.

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#913 : December 13, 2012, 09:49:38 AM


What is the long term plan here? It should be to win the Super Bowl. People say we can win with Freeman, but can we win a Super Bowl? He certainly hasn't demonstrated that ability yet, he's never finished in the top half of a four team division. Most teams win it by being elite on one side of the ball, and at least average on the other. Is Freeman elite? 'Cause if he's not, then we need to build an elite defense to win with him. Does anybody realistically see that happening? Then all that's left is to pray Freeman miraculously transforms.

I personally don't want to spend the next decade waiting on a plan that carries a strong stench of ass.

Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.

TBayXXXVII

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#914 : December 13, 2012, 10:02:01 AM


Yes.

The rule changes that made it easier for teams to pass was in the offseason between the '06-'07 season, Eli already had 3 years in by then.  You're also not taking into account that the real impact of those changes didn't happen until the following season.  So, Eli didn't really benefit from those rule changes in his first 4 seasons while Freeman has because he didn't come in until the '09 season.  Like I mentioned earlier in the post with the Bree comparison, you need to compare the players performances to their peers in the same time frame.  Drew Brees in his first 60 starts, ranks just inside the top 10 of passers.... Freeman is just outside the top 15.  Compare Eli's first 4 season numbers vs the league and see how he ranks and then compare Freeman vs the rest of the league.  Freeman over the last 3.5 seasons ranks in the middle of the pack vs his peers... that means he's average.  You don't extend "average" at the QB position early!  Like I also said earlier, since 2007... these are the QB's that have played in the Super Bowl: Eli, Brady, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Brees, Peyton, and Warner.  Notice... there's NO "average" QB's in that list.  In a passing league, you need a really good QB.  Last I saw, average <> really good.

I saw Eli twice in the SB, and his stats suck, because he is inconsistent. Where are his top10 QBR season, his top10 INT season etc? Looking at SB appearences mixs up cause and effect, QB play and team accomplishments. Yes great teams are separated by their QB play, but where is the proof of a great QB winning on a bad team, only because of him? The QB being the most important player on a team? I have no doubts about, improvements here improve your team more than any improvement on any other position. But this leverage works the other way around too, with bad QBs. More reason to not gamble here.
Btw last year could have been Flacco vs Smith, and it did not take better QB play to happen.
Our chances on improvement are alot higher on other positions of this team, like pass defense, alot easier/cheaper to get better here. Talk about cheap leverage here.  Lets see how Freeman performs on an atleast average team. So far i did not see many bad teams in the SB. And Brady and Peyton still are without a ring when not supported much by defense.

Actually... it did.  Those 2 QB's played against 2 teams with defenses ranked in the bottom 10 in points and yards... yet, both QB's failed to score more than 20 points.  IN FACT, both winning teams made the concious effort to stop the opposing running games and force the QB's to make enough plays to win.  Both Flacco and Smith failed.
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