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Feel Real Good

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« : December 29, 2012, 10:52:35 AM »

Tampa Bay Buccaneers' GM Mark Dominik: "I think we're tired of rebuilding here."

The above was a quote from this past March. Here we are at the end of December and it looks like we're still rebuilding. How much more time does Dominik get? We all have our opinions but the Glazers have the only ones that matter. So what better way to determine how they may view things than to analyze the record of the only GM they've ever fired, Bruce Allen.

Overall record
Allen: 38-42 (in five seasons)
Dominik: 23-40 (in four seasons)

Winning seasons
Allen: 3 (in five seasons)
Dominik: 1 (in four seasons)

Pro Bowl players drafted
Allen: 1 (Davin Joseph)
Dominik: 1 (Gerald McCoy, but could increase if Doug Martin makes it as an alternate)

Pro Bowl player signed
Allen: 1 (Jeff Garcia)
Dominik: 0, but could increase if Vincent Jackson makes it as an alternate

Bruce Allen wins in every category yet what he did in five years wasn't good enough for the Glazers.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

TBTrojan

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« #1 : December 29, 2012, 11:00:16 AM »

The difference is that Allen took over a Super Bowl team and ran it into the ground with old "bandaid" players that were near done to get those winning seasons.
Dom took over a talent deprived squad and is trying to build a longterm winner from the ground up (which is what the Glazers wanted), the issue is he made a mistake with his 1st draft pick and it's costing us, you put Johnson or Garcia on this squad and we're in the postseason.

They fix the QB situation be it make Josh "get it" or replacing him and we are golden.

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« #2 : December 29, 2012, 12:04:34 PM »

The QB "situation" good or bad was created by Dominik. The defense has been statically bad. Dominik seems to be the teflon Dom.

Happy and Peppy and Bursting with love.

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« #3 : December 29, 2012, 12:30:00 PM »

The QB "situation" good or bad was created by Dominik. The defense has been statically bad. Dominik seems to be the teflon Dom.
How exactly was the situation created by Dom?
Gruden & Allen were fired and Morris & Dom were hired because of the Glazers desire for a long term plan.
When you have no QB the #1 part of that plan is getting a young QB to build around.
Who else was Dom meant to draft?
Sanchez? Trade away the world for Stafford who people still can't figure out.
Wait a year for Tebow  ::) , hope we get the #1 pick for Bradford.
We could have swung a trade for Cassel or Kolb because they've worked out so well.
Maybe sign newly released from prison Michael Vick.
Jay Cutler may have been the one option that was open for Dom that could have worked out but he has many people that think he's not that good, not very tough, a whiney baby.
As much as I'm sick of Freeman and think looking back taking him was a mistake, it's hard to say that at the time with the options out there that he wasn't the best shot we had.

Same can't be said for the previous regime.
They ignored Drew Brees when he came available.
Went with an injury prone back that shared the workload in college over Aaron Rodgers when we really didn't have much in the QB cupboard.
They at had a chance to set the team up for the long term.

This is why as much as I want to see Freeman replaced I don't want us to do it just for the sake of doing it, we could end up being far worse off, we have to take a calculated risk when the time is right.

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« #4 : December 29, 2012, 12:32:38 PM »

The difference is that Allen took over a Super Bowl team and ran it into the ground with old "bandaid" players that were near done to get those winning seasons.
Dom took over a talent deprived squad and is trying to build a longterm winner from the ground up (which is what the Glazers wanted), the issue is he made a mistake with his 1st draft pick and it's costing us, you put Johnson or Garcia on this squad and we're in the postseason.

They fix the QB situation be it make Josh "get it" or replacing him and we are golden.
I'm pretty sure Allen thought Michael Clayton, Carnell Williams, Barrett Ruud, Alex Smith, Dan Buenning, Davin Joseph, Jeremy Trueblood, Gaines Adams, Arron Sears, Sabby Piscitelli, Quincy Black, Tanard Jackson, Aqib Talib, and Jeremy Zuttah would build a longterm winner, too.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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« #5 : December 29, 2012, 12:39:01 PM »

Look at our roster after 5 years of Allen and then compare it to our roster after 4 years of Dominic. It's apples and oranges. Allen took over a HoF defense and slowly destroyed it while replacing it with nothing. We are still recovering from him. He left this franchise with a roster almost completely void of talent. Dom has made his share of mistakes, but if you step back and look at the job he's done compared to the other 31 GMs, it's clear he is one of the better guys in the league. We have a young promising roster sprinkled with a few All Pro vets, and we have all kinds of cap space going into next year. We are in a good place right now. Unfortunately, when we pull the plug on Freeman, Dom will probably get the ax because he has to take responsibility for missing on a first round QB.


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« #6 : December 29, 2012, 12:46:39 PM »

The difference is that Allen took over a Super Bowl team and ran it into the ground with old "bandaid" players that were near done to get those winning seasons.
Dom took over a talent deprived squad and is trying to build a longterm winner from the ground up (which is what the Glazers wanted), the issue is he made a mistake with his 1st draft pick and it's costing us, you put Johnson or Garcia on this squad and we're in the postseason.

They fix the QB situation be it make Josh "get it" or replacing him and we are golden.
I'm pretty sure Allen thought Michael Clayton, Carnell Williams, Barrett Ruud, Alex Smith, Dan Buenning, Davin Joseph, Jeremy Trueblood, Gaines Adams, Arron Sears, Sabby Piscitelli, Quincy Black, Tanard Jackson, Aqib Talib, and Jeremy Zuttah would build a longterm winner, too.
But you can have all the talent in the world at other positions but if you are missing that one guy at QB you are done for.
The only reason Gruden got wins those last few years was Garcia.
You only have to look at the Cards with all that talent, for all those years and the only time they won was with Warner.
The Vikes are wasting Peterson, Allen, Harvin, Kalil, Greenway because they have nothing at QB other than Ponder.
The Bills have Spiller, Jackson, Johnson, Williams and.... Fitzpatrick.
If you get the chance to upgrade at QB when you are lacking talent or simply getting old at the position you have to take a shot even if it means neglecting other needs the team has for a season.
Look at the Skins, they've had nothing at QB in forever and have stank because of it, they saw a guy they wanted who they thought could help and went for broke. You have to do that, you could come out looking bad or you could end up with the next big thing but you have to take the chance (unless you happen to stink enough that you are picking #1 the year your guy comes out, like the Colts have twice).
It's not like the Bucs don't have a history of "throwing away" high picks to get people that they think will help out, 4 firsts and 2 seconds for Gruden & Johnson, that turned out ok overall.
« : December 29, 2012, 12:54:13 PM TBTrojan »

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« #7 : December 29, 2012, 12:51:18 PM »

I think this is a misleading post.  Dominik has had his hits and misses, but has been superior to Allen in every respect.


Overall record
Allen: 38-42 (in five seasons)
Dominik: 23-40 (in four seasons)

Winning seasons
Allen: 3 (in five seasons)
Dominik: 1 (in four seasons)

We started off in a better position with Allen.  I would argue that under both GMs the team has oscillated between good and bad.  This also infers coaching has been equal between the two reigns...

Pro Bowl players drafted
Allen: 1 (Davin Joseph)
Dominik: 1 (Gerald McCoy, but could increase if Doug Martin makes it as an alternate)

The most egregious part of the post.  Allen's draft classes were horrendous, and likely cost Gruden a few more seasons as coach here.  Dominik has been, at the worst, solid in the draft, and there have been articles, even some by PR, supporting the notion that he is very good in the draft.

Pro Bowl player signed
Allen: 1 (Jeff Garcia)
Dominik: 0, but could increase if Vincent Jackson makes it as an alternate

Now you've got me defending Dominik's terrible FA record.  Jackson or Nicks alone blows away the cumulative positives of Allen's FA signings.


My biggest complaint with Dominik is that every season we stumble upon a crucial, top-to-bottom deficit at a position.  We all knew the secondary was a problem coming into the season, we knew Eric Wright was a band-aid at best, and now we're coming into the offseason being FORCED to address the situation.  He needs to stabilize positions first, and then we can farm some young players.


“Before you can be labeled elite, you’ve got to get a lot closer to having rings.”  --Josh Freeman, May 2012

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« #8 : December 29, 2012, 12:57:06 PM »

But you can have all the talent in the world at other positions but if you are missing that one guy at QB you are done for.
The only reason Gruden got wins those last few years was Garcia.

So you think the only reason Gruden got wins in 2005 was Chris Simms?

Fran Tarkenton, Hall of Fame QB said. \\\"Ive watched Freeman a lot. He just plays God-awful. Thats who you are. Its just a player being able to play or not play. Josh Freeman has proven to me that he cant play.\\\"

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« #9 : December 29, 2012, 01:33:18 PM »

If you step back and look at it, Dom shouldn't be bringing too many personal items to the office.  And for what Dom spent - and I like Nicks and VJax - it is a good thing at least VJax stayed on the field and has been productive.

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

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« #10 : December 29, 2012, 01:34:50 PM »

But you can have all the talent in the world at other positions but if you are missing that one guy at QB you are done for.
The only reason Gruden got wins those last few years was Garcia.

So you think the only reason Gruden got wins in 2005 was Chris Simms?
Great point, Simms takes over a team that was 5-1 with a healthy lineup, we get injuries and in comes Simms, 6-4 on our way to allowing the fewest yards ever in a playoff loss.
Point being that to win games and have a real shot we needed everything to go perfectly for us, if just a few things go wrong the wheels start to fall off and we struggle.
With a real/quality NFL QB that doesn't really happen because they overcome the problems.

Just look at the Colts, they had 9 straight 10+ win seasons, he goes down and they win 2 games, they grab a guy that looks to be the real deal #1 overall and they are back to 10 + wins.
They had injuries in the past but it didn't stop them rolling up all those wins but the guy at QB goes down and they are the worst team in the league.

Also lets not forget that was 7 years ago, before most of the major changes GODell made to the game, a time when a running game and D could at least give you a shot with a chump at QB.
Now we have most major passing records falling or being threatened by multiple players/teams each season.
You are kidding yourself if you don't think things have changed and teams need to have a QB, this Bucs team with Simms wouldn't win 2 games.
« : December 29, 2012, 01:39:37 PM TBTrojan »

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« #11 : December 29, 2012, 01:39:12 PM »

If you step back and look at it, Dom shouldn't be bringing too many personal items to the office.  And for what Dom spent - and I like Nicks and VJax - it is a good thing at least VJax stayed on the field and has been productive.

I didn't realize how much Dom spent on those guys.    But I looked it up and saw that VJax is the #12 highest salary and Nicks the #16 highest salary in the entire NFL!    That's crazy.   They are both paid more than total superstars like Calvin Johnson and Adrian Peterson.     

Fran Tarkenton, Hall of Fame QB said. \\\"Ive watched Freeman a lot. He just plays God-awful. Thats who you are. Its just a player being able to play or not play. Josh Freeman has proven to me that he cant play.\\\"

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« #12 : December 29, 2012, 01:47:27 PM »

this Bucs team with Simms wouldn't win 2 games.

I agree with you about Simms, to a point.   Garcia and Griese (in their prime) could win more games than Freeman with the talent on this roster though.

Fran Tarkenton, Hall of Fame QB said. \\\"Ive watched Freeman a lot. He just plays God-awful. Thats who you are. Its just a player being able to play or not play. Josh Freeman has proven to me that he cant play.\\\"

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« #13 : December 29, 2012, 01:48:04 PM »

If you step back and look at it, Dom shouldn't be bringing too many personal items to the office.  And for what Dom spent - and I like Nicks and VJax - it is a good thing at least VJax stayed on the field and has been productive.

I didn't realize how much Dom spent on those guys. But I looked it up and saw that VJax is the #12 highest salary and Nicks the #16 highest salary in the entire NFL!    That's crazy.   They are both paid more than total superstars like Calvin Johnson and Adrian Peterson.   
To be fair you can't look at just the numbers, and compare the cap hit. A lot has to do with the structure of the contract.
Next year we pay Jax just $840k while Megatron walks away with $25 million.
$150 million for 8 years or $55.5 million for 5 years, who's paid more?

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« #14 : December 29, 2012, 01:50:05 PM »

$150 million for 8 years or $55.5 million for 5 years, who's paid more?

It depends on how much of that is guaranteed.   

Fran Tarkenton, Hall of Fame QB said. \\\"Ive watched Freeman a lot. He just plays God-awful. Thats who you are. Its just a player being able to play or not play. Josh Freeman has proven to me that he cant play.\\\"
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