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Blaze688

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#30 : January 17, 2013, 01:20:50 PM

You start of with references to Favre, Elway, Brady, and Montana. You want to take away one single play and you think that changes everything?  Utter nonsense.  The reason people have such high opinions of these guys is because that you single play you want to take away... happened over, and over, and over, and over again.  Those instances weren't one-time scenario's, but among a list.

Right, which is why I said they'd "suffer a reputation hit." If Montana doesn't topple Dallas and never ends the Cowboy dynasty, it changes his entire career.  If the Patriots lose to the Rams in the Superbowl, Brady's career arc takes an alternative swerve.  If John Elway loses his fourth Super Bowl in a row, does he come back for a fifth?  Does he win one at all?

These quarterbacks had a slew of great moments, but you're missing the point that I'm trying to make: NFL history is filled with players who never quite crest that last rise to legendary status, because everything in the game is variable.  Josh Freeman wasn't clutch against the Lions in 2010?  Would we be saying that if the referees hadn't blown the pass interference against Kellen Winslow?  Do you see my point?  A ton of it is random, dumbass luck.

No one thinks any less of Kurt Warner.

Go ahead and clarify this statement: you hold Kurt Warner in the same esteem as you would if he were a three-time Super Bowl champion?  Really?  Because no one else does.

Almost everyone on this planet thinks Warner is one of the top 3-7 QB's all-time.

No they don't.  Not with guys like Brady, Manning, Montana, Elway, Marino, Unitas, Young, Bradshaw, Aikman, Favre, etc, etc, etc.  In fact, reputable sources and credible reporters from CBS Sports, Men's Fitness, Fox Sports, Cold Hard Football Facts, Sports Illustrated, and others don't list him in the top 10.  If you think Warner's a top-10 passer ever, then you're ahead of the curve (because he was).  But don't pretend like it's some widely accepted principle.

Everyone knows he shows up in big games, because as you pointed out in you little blip - as with the other guys you've mentioned above - the continual occurance of coming up big in big games is what stands out to people.  There's also a lot of people who think Kurt Warner was a better QB than Bradshaw.  There are some who think he was better than Montana and Elway too.

The point is, if Warner goes 3-for-3 in Super Bowls, with three game-winning drives, there would be genuine discussion for him as the greatest quarterback ever.  He didn't, and there's not, because of his defense.  Kurt Warner isn't considered one of history's legendary passers because of his defense.  That's the ridiculous long-and-short of it.


BucBalla85

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#31 : January 17, 2013, 01:30:35 PM

I think we will always have these discussions unless we get a Brady or guy that is capable of bringing his team to multiple super bowls. Which is very very rare. To compare Freeman in any way to any of those guys is just plain dumb. Freeman is what he is. Hes shown hes capable and hes shown that hes not very capable at times. We will find out what he is. I just cant wait to see him play with a better team around him. For me its always been a team game. Unless you got a guy who can win regardless of whos around. Those guys are rare so Im not holding my breath that we get one of those guys any time soon.

chace1986

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#32 : January 17, 2013, 01:40:54 PM

I think we will always have these discussions unless we get a Brady or guy that is capable of bringing his team to multiple super bowls. Which is very very rare. To compare Freeman in any way to any of those guys is just plain dumb. Freeman is what he is. Hes shown hes capable and hes shown that hes not very capable at times. We will find out what he is. I just cant wait to see him play with a better team around him. For me its always been a team game. Unless you got a guy who can win regardless of whos around. Those guys are rare so Im not holding my breath that we get one of those guys any time soon.

+1 to bold.


Hell, brees might not be as accurate as manziel.

TBayXXXVII

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#33 : January 17, 2013, 01:43:44 PM

You start of with references to Favre, Elway, Brady, and Montana. You want to take away one single play and you think that changes everything?  Utter nonsense.  The reason people have such high opinions of these guys is because that you single play you want to take away... happened over, and over, and over, and over again.  Those instances weren't one-time scenario's, but among a list.

Right, which is why I said they'd "suffer a reputation hit." If Montana doesn't topple Dallas and never ends the Cowboy dynasty, it changes his entire career.  If the Patriots lose to the Rams in the Superbowl, Brady's career arc takes an alternative swerve.  If John Elway loses his fourth Super Bowl in a row, does he come back for a fifth?  Does he win one at all?

These quarterbacks had a slew of great moments, but you're missing the point that I'm trying to make: NFL history is filled with players who never quite crest that last rise to legendary status, because everything in the game is variable.  Josh Freeman wasn't clutch against the Lions in 2010?  Would we be saying that if the referees hadn't blown the pass interference against Kellen Winslow?  Do you see my point?  A ton of it is random, dumbass luck.

No they wouldn't.  The continual repitition would erase anyones doubts.

No one thinks any less of Kurt Warner.

Go ahead and clarify this statement: you hold Kurt Warner in the same esteem as you would if he were a three-time Super Bowl champion?  Really?  Because no one else does.


Almost everyone on this planet thinks Warner is one of the top 3-7 QB's all-time.

No they don't.  Not with guys like Brady, Manning, Montana, Elway, Marino, Unitas, Young, Bradshaw, Aikman, Favre, etc, etc, etc.  In fact, reputable sources and credible reporters from CBS Sports, Men's Fitness, Fox Sports, Cold Hard Football Facts, Sports Illustrated, and others don't list him in the top 10.  If you think Warner's a top-10 passer ever, then you're ahead of the curve (because he was).  But don't pretend like it's some widely accepted principle.

I'll be blunt about this one.  If anyone thinks that guys like Troy Aikmen, Roger Staubach, Terry Bradshaw, or Steve Young was better than Kurt Warner is just plain stupid.

Everyone knows he shows up in big games, because as you pointed out in you little blip - as with the other guys you've mentioned above - the continual occurance of coming up big in big games is what stands out to people.  There's also a lot of people who think Kurt Warner was a better QB than Bradshaw.  There are some who think he was better than Montana and Elway too.

The point is, if Warner goes 3-for-3 in Super Bowls, with three game-winning drives, there would be genuine discussion for him as the greatest quarterback ever.  He didn't, and there's not, because of his defense.  Kurt Warner isn't considered one of history's legendary passers because of his defense.  That's the ridiculous long-and-short of it.

Whether you or I are right or wrong about any of this is completely irrelevant.  You know what, I'll even just say you're right (even though I disagree), fact is, everyone on this planet who knows anything about football, knows that Kurt Warner had that "IT" factor.  You don't need rings to prove that.

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#34 : January 17, 2013, 01:56:22 PM

It was the defense's fault....they held him down and blindfolded him right before he walked on to the field each drive.

Dude we were up 21-10 on the Eagles with 4 mins left in the game. That is the Ds fault. No other way around it.


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#35 : January 17, 2013, 02:03:33 PM

I think even that game you put the blame all around. ITS A TEAM GAME!!! When one thing sucks the other people need to clean it up or you wont win. When we won last year all 3 phases played good football. Not flawless but good football. If they want more of that in 2013 everybody needs to show up. Not just Freeman, not just the defense, or ST. All of it needs to come together and get better over last season. Which I believe they are very capable of doing. It starts with this offseason and into the camps.

chace1986

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#36 : January 17, 2013, 02:12:04 PM

It was the defense's fault....they held him down and blindfolded him right before he walked on to the field each drive.

Dude we were up 21-10 on the Eagles with 4 mins left in the game. That is the Ds fault. No other way around it.

Too bad the offense set the first 30 minutes out of that game and the defense had to keep it close. The entire team failed and lost that game. No way around that.


Hell, brees might not be as accurate as manziel.

warrenfb12

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#37 : January 17, 2013, 04:46:15 PM

It was the defense's fault....they held him down and blindfolded him right before he walked on to the field each drive.

Dude we were up 21-10 on the Eagles with 4 mins left in the game. That is the Ds fault. No other way around it.

Too bad the offense set the first 30 minutes out of that game and the defense had to keep it close. The entire team failed and lost that game. No way around that.

I strongly disagree. I believe your hatred for Freeman is clouding your judgement.


warrenfb12

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#38 : January 17, 2013, 04:47:32 PM

This converstation is silly. Freeman set team records in virtually every category last year. He deserves one more year and for fans to get off his back.


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#39 : January 17, 2013, 04:58:09 PM


 " Freeman set team records in virtually every category last year."

If your position has merit, why must you lie to defend it?


Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.

Biggs3535

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#40 : January 17, 2013, 04:59:42 PM

It was the defense's fault....they held him down and blindfolded him right before he walked on to the field each drive.

Dude we were up 21-10 on the Eagles with 4 mins left in the game. That is the Ds fault. No other way around it.

Too bad the offense set the first 30 minutes out of that game and the defense had to keep it close. The entire team failed and lost that game. No way around that.

I strongly disagree. I believe your hatred for Freeman is clouding your judgement.

You strongly disagree with what - Freeman sucking for the first half?  That's not really an opinion.


gone

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#41 : January 17, 2013, 05:06:02 PM

It was the defense's fault....they held him down and blindfolded him right before he walked on to the field each drive.

Dude we were up 21-10 on the Eagles with 4 mins left in the game. That is the Ds fault. No other way around it.

Too bad the offense set the first 30 minutes out of that game and the defense had to keep it close. The entire team failed and lost that game. No way around that.

I strongly disagree. I believe your hatred my homerism for Freeman is clouding your my judgement.

Hate

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#42 : January 17, 2013, 05:13:35 PM

For me, its not all about his play..... its about how he carries himself. His swag. His confidence. I don't see that from him..... even when he throws an awesome pass like he did vs Carolina. Thats more of an abberration than the norm anyway.

Was listening to an interview with Pete Carroll and he said from the time Wilson walked in the door, he conducted himself like THE guy.... and his teammates gravitated to him. Carroll said that he didn't have to make the decision as to who his QB was...... it was made for him. My point, some guys are just natural leaders of men. Granted... i'm not there but i don't get that from Free.
: January 17, 2013, 05:23:08 PM Hate

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chace1986

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#43 : January 17, 2013, 05:15:11 PM

It was the defense's fault....they held him down and blindfolded him right before he walked on to the field each drive.

Dude we were up 21-10 on the Eagles with 4 mins left in the game. That is the Ds fault. No other way around it.

Too bad the offense set the first 30 minutes out of that game and the defense had to keep it close. The entire team failed and lost that game. No way around that.

I strongly disagree. I believe your hatred for Freeman is clouding your judgement.

I have zero hatred for Freeman. I have stated numerous times that I hope for his success. I just don't let that hope overcome me, which in turn, would allow me to sugar coat his performances and fool me into thinking that he does no wrong.

Your homerism is showing.
: January 17, 2013, 05:37:30 PM chace1986


Hell, brees might not be as accurate as manziel.

chace1986

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#44 : January 17, 2013, 05:19:10 PM

This converstation is silly. Freeman set team records in virtually every category last year. He deserves one more year and for fans to get off his back.

You are the one being silly. Who here is saying that he should not or will not get one more year?


Hell, brees might not be as accurate as manziel.
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