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Dolorous Jason

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#15 : April 06, 2013, 03:00:48 PM

Already adding Revis to our cap is a bit premature I'd say...

What is your point? I was wrong? Ok. You win. I was wrong.

           

Naismith

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#16 : April 06, 2013, 03:02:13 PM

I think a better version of the article would have been, "The Bucs don't have as much cap space as it seems."

There\'s a very real chance the Bucs waive [Revis] before next season. At the very least, it will be a discussion worth having.

TBTrojan

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#17 : April 06, 2013, 03:59:53 PM

I love the comments like "We'll cut Joseph to make room"
OK, so who do we get and what do we pay them to be our starting RG in 2014?

Keep in mind, we only have $19million cap space as things stand now, we are going to be giving up a couple of quality picks for Revis which limits the ability to get cheap young talent, and the following things stick out like a sore thumb looking at who we do have signed...
The only QB signed for 2014 is Adam Weber, so we need a starter and backup.
The only 2 RBs we have under contract are Dougie & Smith, there is no FB signed yet.
At wideout only 2 names look like they should stick and they are Jackson and Ogletree who is a #4 at best.
Unless Crabtree or Stocker explodes we will still need a #1 TE
OT is set if they are happy with Dotson at RT.
We only have 2 OGs signed for 2014, those being Nicks & Joseph, there are zero backups and people are talking about cutting Joseph.
Zuttah is the one and only OC we have under contract
There is still no rotation guy at DE.
McCoy is the only real starting DT under contract unless Landri shocks the world
We don't have a 3rd starting LBer under contract yet.
CB as it stands is the same as we have now, Sure Revis and a rookie could/should be on the way in but there goes draft picks and a large chunk of cap space.
Well at east we are set at safety, the starters only account for $13million.

How do you masage that cap space?
Restructure and just push the mess a year into the future, Keep in mind Jackson and Nicks have already redone the contracts once to shift money around just a year after they signed them and McCoy is still going to get a fair chuck of coin.
Cut some high paid guys?
Penn, Joseph, Wright. Sure, lets cut 2 fifths of the starting oline when we have zero depth to go along with limited cap space and draft picks, as for Wright he could be gone but that makes 2 starters needed, one of which will be a guy with an even bigger contract.
I guess we can save $3.5 million at kicker & punter by bringing in new guys, lets hope we don't have to go through the mess we saw before finding Barth, wasn't it 27 kickers tried in 6 weeks?

We are too heavily invested in areas of little importance (OG, S, K, P), have too little depth, limited draft picks and too many other, massive holes.
Anyone that doesn't see a potential nightmare coming as soon as next offseason is sticking their head in the sand.
Doms doesn't seem to have anything in place for when things go wrong, it's like he's setting the roster up so that everything has to go perfectly or we are screwed.
His plan seems to be build a roster highlighted by big name, big money players at the expense of building a TEAM.

Guard is the easiest position to fill in the NFL, and the easiest to transition to from college to the NFL.

Davin Joseph is a decent player, but he's not worth 6-7 million a year. Jamon Meredith was a downgrade, but not by much. Why the heck are we investing 15 million dollars into guards in the first place? Those kinds of decisions are the ones that cause cap problems. Lucky for us, we can find a castoff similar to Jamon Meredith to replace him, and we would pay less than a million.

I didn't mention Penn in the cut list because it's very difficult to find a decent LT. I didn't mention Barth because he's actually earning his money unlike Koenen.

Also you really need to take a look at the current contracts, they don't match up at all with what you say. There's 3 OGs signed (and like I said, it's not as if it's difficult to find a decent castoff for less than a million a year), there's 2 centers signed, Brian Leonard is a FB/RB, Lorig won't cost more than a million, Castillas/Hayward is the 3rd LB - both capable of starting and both under contract, a mid round draft pick is also possible, also Jackson and Olgetree are the only ones who should stick, what about Mike WIlliams? Eric Wright is terrible and not even worth 3 million a year. Undrafted free agents played as well as him. You would rather keep him around for 5 million when you can find someone in the 2nd-3rd round of the draft who can play as well/even better than him? Also Gibson and Landri should be more than enough for the NT spot which is the least important spot on defense. Clayborn/Bowers/DTN is pretty much the exact DE rotation we had last year minus Bennett. A first round DE is also possible.

It doesn't seem as though you have a good perspective on anything. You would rather keep a bunch of overpaid players who are easily replaced than pay money for an actual good player. The real success of the team depends on recent draft picks continuing success (McCoy, David, Martin) or starting to become good players (Freeman, Clayborn, Bowers, Barron, Foster, etc.). 

Most good teams have the same exact strategy. They build through the draft, pay their good players, let go of the ones that don't deserve to be paid big money (like Joseph should have been), and bring in guys in free agency who have shown that they're worth the money.

It's not like I'm suggesting to cut McCoy, Vincent Jackson, Josh Freeman or any other highly paid player who would be difficult to replace.
before trying to say I don't have a good perspective on anything you might want to reread the post so you don't look dumb.
How exactly is Brian Leonard on the 2014 roster AS OF NOW when he signed a 1 year deal?
Who is the 3rd guard that we have under contract for 2014?
Seriously, that post is so full of fail it's, well it's beyond words.
Before taking the insulting tone make sure you aren't the one who's confused.

lyronmewis

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#18 : April 06, 2013, 04:37:29 PM

I love the comments like "We'll cut Joseph to make room"
OK, so who do we get and what do we pay them to be our starting RG in 2014?

Keep in mind, we only have $19million cap space as things stand now, we are going to be giving up a couple of quality picks for Revis which limits the ability to get cheap young talent, and the following things stick out like a sore thumb looking at who we do have signed...
The only QB signed for 2014 is Adam Weber, so we need a starter and backup.
The only 2 RBs we have under contract are Dougie & Smith, there is no FB signed yet.
At wideout only 2 names look like they should stick and they are Jackson and Ogletree who is a #4 at best.
Unless Crabtree or Stocker explodes we will still need a #1 TE
OT is set if they are happy with Dotson at RT.
We only have 2 OGs signed for 2014, those being Nicks & Joseph, there are zero backups and people are talking about cutting Joseph.
Zuttah is the one and only OC we have under contract
There is still no rotation guy at DE.
McCoy is the only real starting DT under contract unless Landri shocks the world
We don't have a 3rd starting LBer under contract yet.
CB as it stands is the same as we have now, Sure Revis and a rookie could/should be on the way in but there goes draft picks and a large chunk of cap space.
Well at east we are set at safety, the starters only account for $13million.

How do you masage that cap space?
Restructure and just push the mess a year into the future, Keep in mind Jackson and Nicks have already redone the contracts once to shift money around just a year after they signed them and McCoy is still going to get a fair chuck of coin.
Cut some high paid guys?
Penn, Joseph, Wright. Sure, lets cut 2 fifths of the starting oline when we have zero depth to go along with limited cap space and draft picks, as for Wright he could be gone but that makes 2 starters needed, one of which will be a guy with an even bigger contract.
I guess we can save $3.5 million at kicker & punter by bringing in new guys, lets hope we don't have to go through the mess we saw before finding Barth, wasn't it 27 kickers tried in 6 weeks?

We are too heavily invested in areas of little importance (OG, S, K, P), have too little depth, limited draft picks and too many other, massive holes.
Anyone that doesn't see a potential nightmare coming as soon as next offseason is sticking their head in the sand.
Doms doesn't seem to have anything in place for when things go wrong, it's like he's setting the roster up so that everything has to go perfectly or we are screwed.
His plan seems to be build a roster highlighted by big name, big money players at the expense of building a TEAM.

Guard is the easiest position to fill in the NFL, and the easiest to transition to from college to the NFL.

Davin Joseph is a decent player, but he's not worth 6-7 million a year. Jamon Meredith was a downgrade, but not by much. Why the heck are we investing 15 million dollars into guards in the first place? Those kinds of decisions are the ones that cause cap problems. Lucky for us, we can find a castoff similar to Jamon Meredith to replace him, and we would pay less than a million.

I didn't mention Penn in the cut list because it's very difficult to find a decent LT. I didn't mention Barth because he's actually earning his money unlike Koenen.

Also you really need to take a look at the current contracts, they don't match up at all with what you say. There's 3 OGs signed (and like I said, it's not as if it's difficult to find a decent castoff for less than a million a year), there's 2 centers signed, Brian Leonard is a FB/RB, Lorig won't cost more than a million, Castillas/Hayward is the 3rd LB - both capable of starting and both under contract, a mid round draft pick is also possible, also Jackson and Olgetree are the only ones who should stick, what about Mike WIlliams? Eric Wright is terrible and not even worth 3 million a year. Undrafted free agents played as well as him. You would rather keep him around for 5 million when you can find someone in the 2nd-3rd round of the draft who can play as well/even better than him? Also Gibson and Landri should be more than enough for the NT spot which is the least important spot on defense. Clayborn/Bowers/DTN is pretty much the exact DE rotation we had last year minus Bennett. A first round DE is also possible.

It doesn't seem as though you have a good perspective on anything. You would rather keep a bunch of overpaid players who are easily replaced than pay money for an actual good player. The real success of the team depends on recent draft picks continuing success (McCoy, David, Martin) or starting to become good players (Freeman, Clayborn, Bowers, Barron, Foster, etc.). 

Most good teams have the same exact strategy. They build through the draft, pay their good players, let go of the ones that don't deserve to be paid big money (like Joseph should have been), and bring in guys in free agency who have shown that they're worth the money.

It's not like I'm suggesting to cut McCoy, Vincent Jackson, Josh Freeman or any other highly paid player who would be difficult to replace.
before trying to say I don't have a good perspective on anything you might want to reread the post so you don't look dumb.
How exactly is Brian Leonard on the 2014 roster AS OF NOW when he signed a 1 year deal?
Who is the 3rd guard that we have under contract for 2014?
Seriously, that post is so full of fail it's, well it's beyond words.
Before taking the insulting tone make sure you aren't the one who's confused.

"The only QB signed for 2014 is Adam Weber, so we need a starter and backup.
The only 2 RBs we have under contract are Dougie & Smith, there is no FB signed yet."

Why would I assume that you're still talking about 2014?

You're a real genius if you think that it's tough to replace a guard, and that we should keep around an average guard at 6 million a year because we won't currently have other ones.


chace1986

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#19 : April 06, 2013, 05:29:51 PM

Dumb ass article. Pointless speculations. Having guys on rookie deals and our current salary cap position has us light years away from cap hell. This is the NFl you can backload, frontload, and restructure contracts to create cap relief for any give season. The Cowboys get to sign whoever they want every offseason because of this.

What players besides Sapp Lynch and Dewayne White were let go for salary cap reasons and performed for another team in the last decade?

Yup. Plenty of reasons to disagree with the Revis trade....finances shouldn't be one of them.


Until preseason, you stay classy Red Board.

TBTrojan

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#20 : April 06, 2013, 06:00:00 PM

I love the comments like "We'll cut Joseph to make room"
OK, so who do we get and what do we pay them to be our starting RG in 2014?

Keep in mind, we only have $19million cap space as things stand now, we are going to be giving up a couple of quality picks for Revis which limits the ability to get cheap young talent, and the following things stick out like a sore thumb looking at who we do have signed...
The only QB signed for 2014 is Adam Weber, so we need a starter and backup.
The only 2 RBs we have under contract are Dougie & Smith, there is no FB signed yet.
At wideout only 2 names look like they should stick and they are Jackson and Ogletree who is a #4 at best.
Unless Crabtree or Stocker explodes we will still need a #1 TE
OT is set if they are happy with Dotson at RT.
We only have 2 OGs signed for 2014, those being Nicks & Joseph, there are zero backups and people are talking about cutting Joseph.
Zuttah is the one and only OC we have under contract
There is still no rotation guy at DE.
McCoy is the only real starting DT under contract unless Landri shocks the world
We don't have a 3rd starting LBer under contract yet.
CB as it stands is the same as we have now, Sure Revis and a rookie could/should be on the way in but there goes draft picks and a large chunk of cap space.
Well at least we are set at safety, the starters only account for $13million.

How do you masage that cap space?
Restructure and just push the mess a year into the future, Keep in mind Jackson and Nicks have already redone the contracts once to shift money around just a year after they signed them and McCoy is still going to get a fair chuck of coin.
Cut some high paid guys?
Penn, Joseph, Wright. Sure, lets cut 2 fifths of the starting oline when we have zero depth to go along with limited cap space and draft picks, as for Wright he could be gone but that makes 2 starters needed, one of which will be a guy with an even bigger contract.
I guess we can save $3.5 million at kicker & punter by bringing in new guys, lets hope we don't have to go through the mess we saw before finding Barth, wasn't it 27 kickers tried in 6 weeks?

We are too heavily invested in areas of little importance (OG, S, K, P), have too little depth, limited draft picks and too many other, massive holes.
Anyone that doesn't see a potential nightmare coming as soon as next offseason is sticking their head in the sand.
Doms doesn't seem to have anything in place for when things go wrong, it's like he's setting the roster up so that everything has to go perfectly or we are screwed.
His plan seems to be build a roster highlighted by big name, big money players at the expense of building a TEAM.

Guard is the easiest position to fill in the NFL, and the easiest to transition to from college to the NFL.

Davin Joseph is a decent player, but he's not worth 6-7 million a year. Jamon Meredith was a downgrade, but not by much. Why the heck are we investing 15 million dollars into guards in the first place? Those kinds of decisions are the ones that cause cap problems. Lucky for us, we can find a castoff similar to Jamon Meredith to replace him, and we would pay less than a million.

I didn't mention Penn in the cut list because it's very difficult to find a decent LT. I didn't mention Barth because he's actually earning his money unlike Koenen.

Also you really need to take a look at the current contracts, they don't match up at all with what you say. There's 3 OGs signed (and like I said, it's not as if it's difficult to find a decent castoff for less than a million a year), there's 2 centers signed, Brian Leonard is a FB/RB, Lorig won't cost more than a million, Castillas/Hayward is the 3rd LB - both capable of starting and both under contract, a mid round draft pick is also possible, also Jackson and Olgetree are the only ones who should stick, what about Mike WIlliams? Eric Wright is terrible and not even worth 3 million a year. Undrafted free agents played as well as him. You would rather keep him around for 5 million when you can find someone in the 2nd-3rd round of the draft who can play as well/even better than him? Also Gibson and Landri should be more than enough for the NT spot which is the least important spot on defense. Clayborn/Bowers/DTN is pretty much the exact DE rotation we had last year minus Bennett. A first round DE is also possible.

It doesn't seem as though you have a good perspective on anything. You would rather keep a bunch of overpaid players who are easily replaced than pay money for an actual good player. The real success of the team depends on recent draft picks continuing success (McCoy, David, Martin) or starting to become good players (Freeman, Clayborn, Bowers, Barron, Foster, etc.). 

Most good teams have the same exact strategy. They build through the draft, pay their good players, let go of the ones that don't deserve to be paid big money (like Joseph should have been), and bring in guys in free agency who have shown that they're worth the money.

It's not like I'm suggesting to cut McCoy, Vincent Jackson, Josh Freeman or any other highly paid player who would be difficult to replace.
before trying to say I don't have a good perspective on anything you might want to reread the post so you don't look dumb.
How exactly is Brian Leonard on the 2014 roster AS OF NOW when he signed a 1 year deal?
Who is the 3rd guard that we have under contract for 2014?
Seriously, that post is so full of fail it's, well it's beyond words.
Before taking the insulting tone make sure you aren't the one who's confused.

"The only QB signed for 2014 is Adam Weber, so we need a starter and backup.
The only 2 RBs we have under contract are Dougie & Smith, there is no FB signed yet."

Why would I assume that you're still talking about 2014?

You're a real genius if you think that it's tough to replace a guard, and that we should keep around an average guard at 6 million a year because we won't currently have other ones.
OK, so who do we get and what do we pay them to be our starting RG in 2014?
The only QB signed for 2014 is Adam Weber, so we need a starter and backup.
Unless Crabtree or Stocker explodes we will still need a #1 TE
We only have 2 OGs signed for 2014
CB as it stands is the same as we have now,
Anyone that doesn't see a potential nightmare coming as soon as next offseason is sticking their head in the sand.

I t's fairly clear that the entire post is about next year when I mention 2014 so many times, how production from players this year (exploding or shocking the world) effecting the need for replacements/starters and not mentioning 2013 once.
Maybe I can add pictures next time in a effort to make it clearer.

Also in terms of guard, I don't think guard is of much importance but based on the investment by Dom & Schiano they do otherwise they'd have gone out and grabbed a cheaper guy with lesser talent last year.
So who's the "genius" that can't grasp that the team doesn't want lower quality guys that a team can make do with at the position, don't kid yourself that quality guards can be had cheap in FA, veteran guys hitting the market are getting good deals. Andy Levitre just got a deal averaging $7.8m a year, Louis Vasquez is averaging near $6m on his new deal, all the other available guys out their in FA were so great they are still unsigned or getting one year deals, they sound like quality to me.
Sure we could draft a replacement and hope they are solid but that's yet another pick we need to use to fill a hole. Where are all these picks coming from that we hear people say they can use to fill all the holes, Dom is going to need to trade back multiple times with the picks he has left after the Revis deal and then hit on every single one of them. We have next to no quality depth, still have holes in the starting roster and at rotational positions yet people are happy to create more holes to fill with our limited number of draft picks.
: April 06, 2013, 06:03:35 PM TBTrojan

tbc_bucs

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#21 : April 06, 2013, 06:06:46 PM

This article tells me we're going to have to make some tough financial decisions. Just like every other team who has good players in the NFL. Where this becomes a problem is when you pay for crap. Eric Wright. Derrick Ward. Michael Clayton. Quincy Black. All signed by Dominik and overpaid.  Alvin Harper back in the day...

I think dominik has done fair in 5 years, but he does have some bonehead signings to go along with the slam dunks. Revis is a slam dunk.


gone

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#22 : April 06, 2013, 08:50:50 PM

Elite players cost a lot of money.

There's always a lot of ways to clear up space though so I'm not concerned.

The problem is, cap managment and free agency don't happen in a vacuum, and one of the main tools that now exists for managing your cap is the rookie wage scale.  It used to be if you traded a first round pick all you were doing was trading a 10 million dollar elite prospect for an older, but proven, 10 million dollar player.  Trade two high picks and you were actually saving cap space in the deal.  Now you are trading five years of an elite prospect at bargain prices for the privilege of paying 10 or twelve million more for that proven player.  Trade two early ones and you just cost yourself two cheap elite players. 

THere's a difference between paying 15 million in FA, and paying 15 million and trading picks for a guy.  Draft picks are much, much more valuable than they used to be because of the rookie scale.  Teams that don't understand and respect that are going to find themselves in trouble, and fast.  Because the teams that hold those picks will end up being able to spend much more in FA, and the teams without them will not be able to match
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