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Redwave

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#105 : April 17, 2013, 12:09:32 AM

Are we a better team than we were 5 years ago?  No.  The 2008 team had two more wins and our defense wasnt the laughingstock of the NFL. 
The issue with Dom is simple, and it's not.

Comparing the team's record under Allen versus Dom is useless. Forget the players that Allen inherited. He inherited one of the best coaches in the league, one of the great defensive coordinators of all time, and a deep staff.  They went 11-5 the first season, but never recreated that "magic" as the core got older (some of those problems Allen inherited as well). The 2007 Bucs might have had one of the worst run-ups to the playoffs I can remember - they lost 3 out of their last 4 and only "won" the division at 9-7 because the rest of the group was so lousy. They got trounced at home in the playoffs and went golfing. In 2008, they once again started hot, only to fizzle, losing 4 straight when just a single win gets them into the playoffs.

Why recount this? Because the details matter. Think about the Glazers' mentality - They have seen the fortunes of their team go basically steadily up and up, and now they are watching a team that in 2007-2008 went 1 - 8 in the final quarter (and playoffs) of the season. They are about to lose their DC and the defense that had held the team together since Allen arrived looked cooked (the offense stopped functioning years prior). 

Dom's deal is different because the Glazers now looked at the team differently. They wanted a house cleaning, and appeared prepared to weather the storm. They also took a huge gamble on the HC. The consequences on that are largely on them, which is likely why they didn't fire Dom along with Raheem.

So I think whether he stays or goes is more of a qualitative thing than a quantitative thing - are they getting better or are they regressing? Do they barely miss the playoffs? Do they back into the playoffs? Is Freeman a failed pick? Do some of the corners the Bucs have cut on the rosters come back to bite Dom? Does the Schiano-Dominik relationship work?
I'm late to the party on this Booker, but I found your post to be very well thought out and very similar to my perspective.   What you describe during the last years of the Gruden Allen era is also the justification for anyone that would like to answer yes to the Skull & Bones question - Are we a better team than we were 5 years ago?    To me, it's all about the trajectory of the team in the context of this discussion.   Although you touch on it Booker, you could've gone further with Gruden/Allen. Gruden and Dungy were really two of the luckiest coaches I've ever seen in my life. Not because they were not good, but because they were both so absolutely one dimensional that I doubt either would've reached the pinnacle if it were not for their tailor-made opportunities. Their strengths were exactly what the Bucs and Colts needed to get over the hump and get to a SB.   It worked out for everyone, but both coaches had a shelf life and IMO Allen did nothing to extend Grudens or build a future.   Each year was like the proverbial box of chocolates, and if I remember correctly, highly reflected the strength of schedule swings,   I was very happy for Tony to have left at the top, but lose one QB, and the Colts would've likely become a team that gave us the ole deja vu in a hurry.

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#106 : April 17, 2013, 05:30:53 AM

Suuuure. Bruce Allen. University of Richmond, STAR PUNTER!  He's the guy building that team. Not coaching superstar Shanahan. No way he's picking the players. With all of his on field experience, coaching since the 70's, actual QB experience, SUPER BOWL WINNING COACH

Yeah, they're letting the star punter, drafted in the 12th round decide who is on that team.
What an idiotic way of looking at things.
Who cares what position they played or where.
Using that type of thought process Matt Millen with his 4 Super Bowl rings and 2 All Pro selections as a player make him a better GM than Bill Belichick is a coach because he was a lowly center & TE at  Wesleyan University (didn't even get drafted)

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#107 : April 17, 2013, 08:18:05 AM

Not saying the 2008 team was a great team.  It wasnt.  But what does it say about Dom's 4 year rebuild if the current team really isn't anymore competitive.  And to have a defense this bad with all the premium picks used on that side is a complete failure.  32nd pass defense.  29th pass rush.  And now his plan seems to be to let the most productive DE go and just expect better results out of Clayton and Bowers.  And his plan with the CBs seems to be either to trade for a 28 year old coming off a knee injury and pay him like a franchise QB or team a rookie up with Eric Wright. 


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#108 : April 17, 2013, 08:18:36 AM

Allen is following in his father's footsteps.   Dude is one of the best GMs out there.

just to be clear, what are some of his crowning achievements in acquiring players during his15 years as a GM?

and while we really dont know, do you believe he had final draft say in oakland?  do you believe he had final draft say in tampa?  and how about in washington?
At the very least, he's much much much better with contracts. I can't think of a single bad contract Allen wrote in Tampa after 2004. Dominik has had at least one absolute disaster each of his first four years.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#109 : April 17, 2013, 08:21:54 AM

And he drafted a top 5 OG


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#110 : April 17, 2013, 08:29:28 AM

And he drafted a top 5 OG
Mark Dominik has issued new contracts to Michael Clayton, Ryan Sims, Carnell Williams, Barrett Ruud, Donald Penn, Davin Joseph, Jeremy Trueblood, Quincy Black, Tanard Jackson, and Jeremy Zuttah, all acquired by the Bruce Allen regime.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#111 : April 17, 2013, 08:37:55 AM

Personally the Tanard Jackson contract bothered me the most.  It didnt hurt us but he rewarded the guy right after serving a 1 year suspension for drugs when he should have cut his ass.  The Clayton one was pretty bad as well. 


GameTime

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#112 : April 17, 2013, 11:11:29 AM

Not saying the 2008 team was a great team.  It wasnt.  But what does it say about Dom's 4 year rebuild if the current team really isn't anymore competitive.  And to have a defense this bad with all the premium picks used on that side is a complete failure.  32nd pass defense.  29th pass rush.  And now his plan seems to be to let the most productive DE go and just expect better results out of Clayton and Bowers.  And his plan with the CBs seems to be either to trade for a 28 year old coming off a knee injury and pay him like a franchise QB or team a rookie up with Eric Wright.

hold up, so after bruce allen was here a few years with his coaching staff in tact his team finished 9-7.  after dominik was here a few years with a brand new coaching staff his team finished 7-9.   

the only real differences i see is that the current Bucs team is filled with young guys and a possible franchise QB.  the 2008 team?  not so much.  although it does feel like cheating to know how talib/sears/cadillac/clayton/adams panned out.

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#113 : April 17, 2013, 12:46:35 PM

Baalke has been there awhile, since 2005,  he was a scout then director of player personal. and then GM in 2011. Harbough is great, but Baalke handed him a pretty good roster.

baalke has been there a while, sure.  but he's been the GM for 2 seasons.  so while he scouted, and had a hand in things...he didnt make that team.  the guy before baalke handed him a pretty good roster.  ill give him credit for aldon smith...but what about aj jenkins?  we all know that kaep was harbaugh all the way.

I've said this before about SF - it's hard to figure out how good a GM they have there, and what kind of "blueprint" they offer, because the high-level players were all accumulated over a 3-coach, 2 GM span. They've had guys that looked like busts under one-regime turn out great in another. They are doing something right, obviously, but I don't know exactly how to parcel out credit. I'd say Harbough gets the lion-share though.

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#114 : April 17, 2013, 12:49:44 PM

Not saying the 2008 team was a great team.  It wasnt.  But what does it say about Dom's 4 year rebuild if the current team really isn't anymore competitive.  And to have a defense this bad with all the premium picks used on that side is a complete failure.  32nd pass defense.  29th pass rush.  And now his plan seems to be to let the most productive DE go and just expect better results out of Clayton and Bowers.  And his plan with the CBs seems to be either to trade for a 28 year old coming off a knee injury and pay him like a franchise QB or team a rookie up with Eric Wright.

hold up, so after bruce allen was here a few years with his coaching staff in tact his team finished 9-7.  after dominik was here a few years with a brand new coaching staff his team finished 7-9.   

the only real differences i see is that the current Bucs team is filled with young guys and a possible franchise QB.  the 2008 team?  not so much.  although it does feel like cheating to know how talib/sears/cadillac/clayton/adams panned out.

exactly.  the 2008 team was on the verge of collapse due to years of poor drafting and band-aid free agency.  The 2008 team was coached by the same coach that won a Super Bowl years before, a team that was loaded with stars when Allen arrived.

 The curent team is the EXACT opposite, a young improving team with potential coached by a brand new coach, that had NO stars when the build began. In fact, they gutted the team of the old stars.  Now, some might quibble with the word "potential," but to compare the two teams negatively as a benchmark of the current GMs performance versus the prior GM is . . . well . . .  tough to understand. How could anyone say the 2008 team was better situated for success than the current team?

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#115 : April 17, 2013, 01:17:53 PM

Not saying the 2008 team was a great team.  It wasnt.  But what does it say about Dom's 4 year rebuild if the current team really isn't anymore competitive.  And to have a defense this bad with all the premium picks used on that side is a complete failure.  32nd pass defense.  29th pass rush.  And now his plan seems to be to let the most productive DE go and just expect better results out of Clayton and Bowers.  And his plan with the CBs seems to be either to trade for a 28 year old coming off a knee injury and pay him like a franchise QB or team a rookie up with Eric Wright.

hold up, so after bruce allen was here a few years with his coaching staff in tact his team finished 9-7.  after dominik was here a few years with a brand new coaching staff his team finished 7-9.   

the only real differences i see is that the current Bucs team is filled with young guys and a possible franchise QB.  the 2008 team?  not so much.  although it does feel like cheating to know how talib/sears/cadillac/clayton/adams panned out.

different philosophies to build a team, gut it and go real young vs. trying to fill in and stay competitive in the process.  As you admit, we obviously know that draft picks didn't pan out and at this point we do not know if the current young guys are going to pan out either.   Allen also had 3 winning seasons and 2 division titles during his tenure.  Question is, is the team better now than 4 years ago.  I don't really want to hear about potential to be good at the end of this season.  5 years is enough time to have built a playoff team.

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#116 : April 17, 2013, 02:07:14 PM

Suuuure. Bruce Allen. University of Richmond, STAR PUNTER!  He's the guy building that team. Not coaching superstar Shanahan. No way he's picking the players. With all of his on field experience, coaching since the 70's, actual QB experience, SUPER BOWL WINNING COACH

Yeah, they're letting the star punter, drafted in the 12th round decide who is on that team.
What an idiotic way of looking at things.
Who cares what position they played or where.
Using that type of thought process Matt Millen with his 4 Super Bowl rings and 2 All Pro selections as a player make him a better GM than Bill Belichick is a coach because he was a lowly center & TE at  Wesleyan University (didn't even get drafted)

Lord Freesus is right, but for the wrong reasons. By just about all available evidence, Bruce Allen does not make the player decisions for the Skins - he's a facilitator for Shanahan and his team of scouts.

That said, Bruce Allen has been around football all his life. His dad was not only an innovator himself, but also worked with some of the greatest NFL minds in history - Sid Gilliam and George Halas. He was Halas' DC and draft guy - he drafted Butkus, Sayers, and Ditka for the Bears. Later, he became somewhat famous for heavily favoring vets over college draft picks ("The Over the Hill Gang" at Washington for example). Given how much time Bruce Allen spent on a football field, it's sort of interesting to me that he's not more heavily involved in player selection over the course of his career.

Lord Freesus - I think you'd be surprised where some of these GM/Personnel guys come from. Tim Ruskell worked at the old Record & Tape Outlet in Tampa and was a 19-year old USF DJ/sales who got a ball-boy gig with the Bucs in 1976. John Herrera (ex-Raiders) was hired straight out of high school by Al Davis to run errands. Other than being John McKay's son, and growing up around football, what was Rich McKay? He played HS football at Jesuit. Then went to college and then legal work for nearly a decade. Charlie Casserly got his start as an unpaid intern after coaching HS sports (just 2 years of football). John Schneider played 1 year of college football at a tiny Wisconsin college, and wrote Ron Wolf a letter asking for an internship. Gil Brandt's story might be the best. He was living in Wisconsin operating a business that photographed babies at hospitals and scouting football was a hobby. He knew "Crazy Legs" Hirsch from the University of Wisconsin. Hirsch pushed him to keep up his hobby, and got him in contact with one of the early innovators of scouting, Eddie Kotal. Kotal hired Brandt to send him info (Kotal was considered one of the first scout to really be national).

So calling out Allen for being a "star" punter is pretty silly.

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#117 : April 17, 2013, 02:10:42 PM

For what it's worth, I think Allen could be the right GM for the right coach. He clearly has talents. I just think the combination of him and the entire Bucs coaching staff together wasn't necessarily the best situation at the time.

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#118 : April 17, 2013, 03:39:07 PM

different philosophies to build a team, gut it and go real young vs. trying to fill in and stay competitive in the process.  As you admit, we obviously know that draft picks didn't pan out and at this point we do not know if the current young guys are going to pan out either.   Allen also had 3 winning seasons and 2 division titles during his tenure.  Question is, is the team better now than 4 years ago.  I don't really want to hear about potential to be good at the end of this season.  5 years is enough time to have built a playoff team.

bruce allen inherited a top 5 defense and jon gruden.  dominik inherited a 40 year old derrick brooks, gaines adams and raheem morris.  i wonder if that had anything to do with the W/L records and division titles?

i get it that you like the stopgap/fill in approach.  but all bias' aside, i would hope that most Bucs fans feel better about the team in 2013 rather than 2008.  i guess i really dont care, it just baffles me. 

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#119 : April 17, 2013, 03:54:32 PM

would hope that most Bucs fans feel better about the team in 2013 rather than 2008.  i guess i really dont care, it just baffles me.

I would think MOST Bucs fans feel better in 2013 than 2008, but there's opposition to that thought from a couple points of view, some relating to Gruden/Allen others relating to Dom.

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\\\\\\\'s Cancer Center
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