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Booker Reese

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#30 : April 18, 2013, 01:19:34 PM

All things being equal, getting back better players improves the team - or is that too controversial for you?

TBTrojan

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#31 : April 18, 2013, 01:35:46 PM

All things being equal, getting back better players improves the team - or is that too controversial for you?
Again, explain how we returned so many injured players in 2011 to go along with adding new ones from the draft and took a massive step back, or is that too difficult for you.
Also how is it that your pass D was allowing 80+ yards less a game at the end of the season than it was at the beginning when we had inferior talent?
How is it that we saw no drop of in offensive production when Nicks went down?
Surely just having the extra talent on the squad means those things can't happen.
It's not as simple as "improve the talent, the team improves" because there are many other factors that make those types of assumptions idiotic.

Booker Reese

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#32 : April 18, 2013, 02:08:40 PM

Hence, "all things being equal."

Booker Reese

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#33 : April 18, 2013, 02:20:12 PM

btw, where do you get 80 yards a game difference?

chace1986

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#34 : April 18, 2013, 03:45:10 PM

btw, where do you get 80 yards a game difference?

It all depends on what specific stats you want to look at. There is no doubt that the Bucs did better a little better in the 2nd 8 games than they did in the first....but it wasn't by much. The Bucs from games 9-16 allowed an average of 283.5 pass yards per game, and their average for the year was 297.
The total pass yards for those games were:
@OAK - 402
@CAR - 234
vs. ATL - 345
@ DEN - 242
vs. PHI  - 338
@ NO - 298
vs. STL - 196
@ ATL - 213

Looking at these numbers, while they are not that great, you could add a silver lining that states, "well in 4 of the last 5 games, we allowed either right at, or below the season average", which is true.

However, when you look at things from a situational standpoint, that fact shouldn't make you feel much better.
In week 13, the Bucs did a good job in the 1st half of limiting Manning. The 3rd quarter is what killed them. Trendon Holliday gave Denver excellent field position several times and Manning was unstoppable with a few half time adjustments. After the Von Miller pick 6, the Donks just sat on the lead.
When looking at week 15, just because they held the Saints under 300 yards passing, does not mean that they were efficient in stopping the Saints. Turnovers gave the Saints short field pretty much all game allowing them to score quickly without needing to rack up a ton of yards. They also played with a pretty significant lead for much of the game, which usually contributes to a little few passing yards.
In week 16, the Rams did a good job of running on the Bucs and once again turnovers allowed them to take a lead without having to sustain long drives. They pretty much sat on a big lead for much of the day without the need for their passing game to ever get clicking.
Week 17 was a pretty good performance. While I personally don't believe that the Falcons were "all in" on mentally winning that game, the Bucs did make Matty Ice feel the heat pretty much all day.


Chris_BucFan60

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#35 : April 18, 2013, 04:02:19 PM

BPA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mmrhPn5F3g
We can get Stedman in the 3rd


chace1986

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#36 : April 18, 2013, 04:13:11 PM

BPA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mmrhPn5F3g

Reminds me sooooo much of Ryan Broyles.

Want.


Booker Reese

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#37 : April 18, 2013, 04:13:50 PM

btw, where do you get 80 yards a game difference?

It all depends on what specific stats you want to look at. There is no doubt that the Bucs did better a little better in the 2nd 8 games than they did in the first....but it wasn't by much. The Bucs from games 9-16 allowed an average of 283.5 pass yards per game, and their average for the year was 297.
The total pass yards for those games were:
@OAK - 402
@CAR - 234
vs. ATL - 345
@ DEN - 242
vs. PHI  - 338
@ NO - 298
vs. STL - 196
@ ATL - 213

Looking at these numbers, while they are not that great, you could add a silver lining that states, "well in 4 of the last 5 games, we allowed either right at, or below the season average", which is true.

However, when you look at things from a situational standpoint, that fact shouldn't make you feel much better.
In week 13, the Bucs did a good job in the 1st half of limiting Manning. The 3rd quarter is what killed them. Trendon Holliday gave Denver excellent field position several times and Manning was unstoppable with a few half time adjustments. After the Von Miller pick 6, the Donks just sat on the lead.
When looking at week 15, just because they held the Saints under 300 yards passing, does not mean that they were efficient in stopping the Saints. Turnovers gave the Saints short field pretty much all game allowing them to score quickly without needing to rack up a ton of yards. They also played with a pretty significant lead for much of the game, which usually contributes to a little few passing yards.
In week 16, the Rams did a good job of running on the Bucs and once again turnovers allowed them to take a lead without having to sustain long drives. They pretty much sat on a big lead for much of the day without the need for their passing game to ever get clicking.
Week 17 was a pretty good performance. While I personally don't believe that the Falcons were "all in" on mentally winning that game, the Bucs did make Matty Ice feel the heat pretty much all day.

Yeah, I was getting a smaller number. I agree with all your points. I'd also note that the Oakland game was the second worst (purely in yardage terms) and while it's not technically in the second half, it did prominently feature the "second tier" guys - Johnson, Biggers. Wright played in just 59% of the snaps that week.

Personally, not a fan of total yards as the metric for a lot of reasons. Oakland chucked it 61 times and also had several picks.

chace1986

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#38 : April 18, 2013, 04:23:59 PM

btw, where do you get 80 yards a game difference?

It all depends on what specific stats you want to look at. There is no doubt that the Bucs did better a little better in the 2nd 8 games than they did in the first....but it wasn't by much. The Bucs from games 9-16 allowed an average of 283.5 pass yards per game, and their average for the year was 297.
The total pass yards for those games were:
@OAK - 402
@CAR - 234
vs. ATL - 345
@ DEN - 242
vs. PHI  - 338
@ NO - 298
vs. STL - 196
@ ATL - 213

Looking at these numbers, while they are not that great, you could add a silver lining that states, "well in 4 of the last 5 games, we allowed either right at, or below the season average", which is true.

However, when you look at things from a situational standpoint, that fact shouldn't make you feel much better.
In week 13, the Bucs did a good job in the 1st half of limiting Manning. The 3rd quarter is what killed them. Trendon Holliday gave Denver excellent field position several times and Manning was unstoppable with a few half time adjustments. After the Von Miller pick 6, the Donks just sat on the lead.
When looking at week 15, just because they held the Saints under 300 yards passing, does not mean that they were efficient in stopping the Saints. Turnovers gave the Saints short field pretty much all game allowing them to score quickly without needing to rack up a ton of yards. They also played with a pretty significant lead for much of the game, which usually contributes to a little few passing yards.
In week 16, the Rams did a good job of running on the Bucs and once again turnovers allowed them to take a lead without having to sustain long drives. They pretty much sat on a big lead for much of the day without the need for their passing game to ever get clicking.
Week 17 was a pretty good performance. While I personally don't believe that the Falcons were "all in" on mentally winning that game, the Bucs did make Matty Ice feel the heat pretty much all day.

Yeah, I was getting a smaller number. I agree with all your points. I'd also note that the Oakland game was the second worst (purely in yardage terms) and while it's not technically in the second half, it did prominently feature the "second tier" guys - Johnson, Biggers. Wright played in just 59% of the snaps that week.

Personally, not a fan of total yards as the metric for a lot of reasons. Oakland chucked it 61 times and also had several picks.

Couldn't agree more. Most stats are situational. I SMH when people use total yards as a measure of ranking a defense/offense. PPG is a little better for use, but even that one doesn't tell near the whole story. I almost wish someone would come up with a defense ranking system kind of like they do with QBR, where it would combine average the # of yards, 3rd down %s, PPG, redzone defense, yards per play, turnovers, etc. all together to form a sort of ultimate defensive ranking. By my logic, even that wouldn't be the end all be all, but at least it would better than just the thought of, "well, ____ allowed the least yards per game...so they are the #1 defense"


TBTrojan

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#39 : April 19, 2013, 07:01:27 AM

btw, where do you get 80 yards a game difference?
Sorry, it was completey off the top of my head, the actual figure is nearer 55 yards a game but that's still a huge number.
The 80 yard figure was pure passing yardage, not accounting for deducting things like lost yards on sacks.

Also in terms of all things being equal, that's all great but when are things ever equal, it just doesn't happen.
In theory you are right but all I'm saying is don't assume things will automatically get better as the 2010 and 2011 seasons proved.

TBTrojan

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#40 : April 19, 2013, 07:07:15 AM

Couldn't agree more. Most stats are situational. I SMH when people use total yards as a measure of ranking a defense/offense. PPG is a little better for use, but even that one doesn't tell near the whole story. I almost wish someone would come up with a defense ranking system kind of like they do with QBR, where it would combine average the # of yards, 3rd down %s, PPG, redzone defense, yards per play, turnovers, etc. all together to form a sort of ultimate defensive ranking. By my logic, even that wouldn't be the end all be all, but at least it would better than just the thought of, "well, ____ allowed the least yards per game...so they are the #1 defense"
I know I was the one using yardage there but all the people complaining about the pass D almost being the worst ever use that as the reason.
Truth is the Saints pass D was actually worse, the only reason they allowed less yardage was because their run D was really bad too, creating the worst overall D EVER.

chace1986

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#41 : April 19, 2013, 10:01:13 AM

Couldn't agree more. Most stats are situational. I SMH when people use total yards as a measure of ranking a defense/offense. PPG is a little better for use, but even that one doesn't tell near the whole story. I almost wish someone would come up with a defense ranking system kind of like they do with QBR, where it would combine average the # of yards, 3rd down %s, PPG, redzone defense, yards per play, turnovers, etc. all together to form a sort of ultimate defensive ranking. By my logic, even that wouldn't be the end all be all, but at least it would better than just the thought of, "well, ____ allowed the least yards per game...so they are the #1 defense"
I know I was the one using yardage there but all the people complaining about the pass D almost being the worst ever use that as the reason.
Truth is the Saints pass D was actually worse, the only reason they allowed less yardage was because their run D was really bad too, creating the worst overall D EVER.

Yea, that statement wasn't directed at you, but more at posters who constantly use just yardage as a sole ranking.


The Freeman

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#42 : April 19, 2013, 12:18:41 PM

1) trade up if a good passrusher(Werner/Mingo/Jones) or CB(Rhodes/Trufant) sleep
2) huge trade down for a 1st round pick in 2014
3) CB D.J. Hayden
4) trade down for two 2nd day picks
5) DE Datone Jones - Alex Okafor - Damontre Moore
6) little trade down for a 2nd & 4th
7) DT Jesse Williams - Johnathan Hankins
8) MLB Manti Te'o - Kevin Minter

JC5100

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#43 : April 20, 2013, 10:02:27 AM

If Robert Woods is sitting there in the 2nd round we gotta snag him.
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