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#15 : April 19, 2013, 09:05:44 AM

You only have to look at Bowers, this was a potential #1 overall based on pure talent, using a 2nd rounder to get that talent and risking how well he recovered from injury was worth a shot.
The guy who has 4.5 sacks in two seasons? That's an example of a good move?
Isn't hindsight a great thing, if you bothered to read what was actually said it was that his talent was worth a shot, taking a risk on injury.
You do know what taking a risk means don't you?
It means he might not recover and as luck would have it he has had injury issues.
He was still worth taking a flyer on.
Why not take a flyer on Justin Houston, who was also seen as a 1st round draft pick, who slipped to the 3rd round, and now has 15.5 sacks in two seasons.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#16 : April 19, 2013, 09:06:58 AM

The guy who has 4.5 sacks in two seasons? That's an example of a good move?

and how about the guy with 7.5?  BUSTS I TELL YOU!  BUSTS!


\"Lets put the O back in Country\"

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#17 : April 19, 2013, 09:19:58 AM

For the Dominik supporters... what specifically are your criteria for firing a GM?

And answer this question honestly, if Haynesworth accepted the Bucs $100M offer and played here like he did in Washington and everything else was the same, would you feel the same about Dominik?

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#18 : April 19, 2013, 09:59:35 AM

You only have to look at Bowers, this was a potential #1 overall based on pure talent, using a 2nd rounder to get that talent and risking how well he recovered from injury was worth a shot.
The guy who has 4.5 sacks in two seasons? That's an example of a good move?
Isn't hindsight a great thing, if you bothered to read what was actually said it was that his talent was worth a shot, taking a risk on injury.
You do know what taking a risk means don't you?
It means he might not recover and as luck would have it he has had injury issues.
He was still worth taking a flyer on.
Why not take a flyer on Justin Houston, who was also seen as a 1st round draft pick, who slipped to the 3rd round, and now has 15.5 sacks in two seasons.
Because he wasn't available when we were picking due to us taking a flyer on Bowers who as previously mentioned had #1 overall talent as an upside rather than a late first rounder.
Who knows what might have happened if he'd fallen another half a round, Dom might have weighed the options and risked that pick too instead of going with Foster.
Those 15.5 sacks are great but once again it's all hindsight, if there was no risk involved in picks and GMs knew exactly what they were getting you wouldn't see things like the Pats getting Brady in the 6th round of the same draft they wasted a second rounder on the "legendary" Adrian Klemm and Courtney Brown went #1 overall.

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#19 : April 19, 2013, 10:00:47 AM

For the Dominik supporters... what specifically are your criteria for firing a GM?

And answer this question honestly, if Haynesworth accepted the Bucs $100M offer and played here like he did in Washington and everything else was the same, would you feel the same about Dominik?

1 - a feeling of despair, no hope.
2 - to answer that question honestly, what if haynesworth came to tampa and played like an all-pro?

dominik hasnt been perfect, but i think he's been pretty decent.  he fixes his mistakes rather quickly and no one outside of OBP knows what he's had to deal with regarding the rebuild/longterm plan.

i dont think being a GM is as easy as this board makes it out to be.  see scot mccloughlan for that.

\"Lets put the O back in Country\"

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#20 : April 19, 2013, 10:09:28 AM

You only have to look at Bowers, this was a potential #1 overall based on pure talent, using a 2nd rounder to get that talent and risking how well he recovered from injury was worth a shot.
The guy who has 4.5 sacks in two seasons? That's an example of a good move?
Isn't hindsight a great thing, if you bothered to read what was actually said it was that his talent was worth a shot, taking a risk on injury.
You do know what taking a risk means don't you?
It means he might not recover and as luck would have it he has had injury issues.
He was still worth taking a flyer on.
Why not take a flyer on Justin Houston, who was also seen as a 1st round draft pick, who slipped to the 3rd round, and now has 15.5 sacks in two seasons.
Because he wasn't available when we were picking due to us taking a flyer on Bowers who as previously mentioned had #1 overall talent as an upside rather than a late first rounder.
Who knows what might have happened if he'd fallen another half a round, Dom might have weighed the options and risked that pick too instead of going with Foster.
Those 15.5 sacks are great but once again it's all hindsight, if there was no risk involved in picks and GMs knew exactly what they were getting you wouldn't see things like the Pats getting Brady in the 6th round of the same draft they wasted a second rounder on the "legendary" Adrian Klemm and Courtney Brown went #1 overall.
My point why not take a flyer on Houston instead of Bowers? And it's not hindsight. A few of us liked Justin Houston before the draft. The Bucs had him in for a pre-draft visit. They knew who he was. He didn't come out of thin air.

All this talk about "hindsight" talk is loser talk. It's the same thing posters on here said about Bruce Allen 5-6 years ago as his picks were busting left and right.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#21 : April 19, 2013, 10:11:02 AM

i dont think being a GM is as easy as this board makes it out to be.  see scot mccloughlan for that.
No one says it's easy. But you get $1 million per year for a reason. To get things right. If you can't handle it, there are a lot of other guys who would like $1 million per year to try and get things right.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#22 : April 19, 2013, 10:13:56 AM

1 - a feeling of despair, no hope.
2 - to answer that question honestly, what if haynesworth came to tampa and played like an all-pro?

1. How many years of not making the playoffs does it take to get a feeling of despair?

2. If Haynesworth came here and played like an All-Pro we would have been alot better than 24-40. But there were alot of people who believed that was never a possibility because he was going to shut it down as soon as he got his long term contract, and he did. 

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#23 : April 19, 2013, 10:26:13 AM

For the Dominik supporters... what specifically are your criteria for firing a GM?

And answer this question honestly, if Haynesworth accepted the Bucs $100M offer and played here like he did in Washington and everything else was the same, would you feel the same about Dominik?
Well I'm not a supporter or hater of Doms, I like some moves and hate others.
To me there really isn't a set of criteria, it's a matter of taking all the info studying it to see what went wrong & why, then making your mind up.
I can like the idea behind some moves and what he was going for but then the results sometimes aren't great.
It's like the pick of Freeman, I never really liked the pick of Josh the player BUT I get & like why he made it, he was hired on the understanding that the team get young, we find a franchise QB and build for the long term not just 1 year fixes. What other realistic options did he/we have with no 2nd rounder and a dud FA class?

The one thing I do dislike and could end up costing him his job is how he can't seem to figure out FA values, he just overpays far too many players because we had enough cap room for it to not be an issue, he's never really had to manage the cap and gotten away with it, lets see how well he does going forward as that cap room has disappeared due to all the high priced FAs and upcoming extensions. In the years to come those Clayton, Wright, Black type bad deals could be killers and he won't be able to over pay to get a guy like Goldson.

My other problems may not be down to him and be more the desires of the Glazers and/or the coach at the time, such as our over investment at guard & safety which Schiano seems to want and the Revis deal that I get the feeling the Glazers are behind.

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#24 : April 19, 2013, 10:32:26 AM

For the Dominik supporters... what specifically are your criteria for firing a GM?

And answer this question honestly, if Haynesworth accepted the Bucs $100M offer and played here like he did in Washington and everything else was the same, would you feel the same about Dominik?

1 - a feeling of despair, no hope.
2 - to answer that question honestly, what if haynesworth came to tampa and played like an all-pro?

dominik hasnt been perfect, but i think he's been pretty decent.  he fixes his mistakes rather quickly and no one outside of OBP knows what he's had to deal with regarding the rebuild/longterm plan.

i dont think being a GM is as easy as this board makes it out to be.  see scot mccloughlan for that.
1. You mean like he fixes the pass rush which is actually worse than what he inherited?
2. Hope means nothing once you lose. It dissipates quickly. Late-season flops are a result of poor drafting, no depth. Gruden and Allen got fired for that and Dom is well on his way to the same.

In Verner We Trust

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#25 : April 19, 2013, 10:41:42 AM

You only have to look at Bowers, this was a potential #1 overall based on pure talent, using a 2nd rounder to get that talent and risking how well he recovered from injury was worth a shot.
The guy who has 4.5 sacks in two seasons? That's an example of a good move?
Isn't hindsight a great thing, if you bothered to read what was actually said it was that his talent was worth a shot, taking a risk on injury.
You do know what taking a risk means don't you?
It means he might not recover and as luck would have it he has had injury issues.
He was still worth taking a flyer on.
Why not take a flyer on Justin Houston, who was also seen as a 1st round draft pick, who slipped to the 3rd round, and now has 15.5 sacks in two seasons.
Because he wasn't available when we were picking due to us taking a flyer on Bowers who as previously mentioned had #1 overall talent as an upside rather than a late first rounder.
Who knows what might have happened if he'd fallen another half a round, Dom might have weighed the options and risked that pick too instead of going with Foster.
Those 15.5 sacks are great but once again it's all hindsight, if there was no risk involved in picks and GMs knew exactly what they were getting you wouldn't see things like the Pats getting Brady in the 6th round of the same draft they wasted a second rounder on the "legendary" Adrian Klemm and Courtney Brown went #1 overall.
My point why not take a flyer on Houston instead of Bowers? And it's not hindsight. A few of us liked Justin Houston before the draft. The Bucs had him in for a pre-draft visit. They knew who he was. He didn't come out of thin air.

All this talk about "hindsight" talk is loser talk. It's the same thing posters on here said about Bruce Allen 5-6 years ago as his picks were busting left and right.
Maybe you should try reading posts you are replying to for once, see those bits that are bolded, THAT is why they went for Bowers over Houston.
Lets see do we take the flyer on the guy with #1 overall potential 51 picks later
OR
Do we take the guy viewed as a late first rounder just 20(ish) picks later.

Also hindsight isn't loser talk, it's just something morons don't understand.
Who cares if the Bucs had him in for a pre draft visit, it doesn't mean they knew what he was, you think the Chargers didn't have Ryan Leaf in for a visit or the Raiders visit with Russell.
It's great to know what we know now and say "we should have done this" but that isn't reality, you go with what you know at the time.
Also whats to say that Houston would have 15.5 sacks if he came to Tampa, different teammates, different coaching, different schemes, different schedules. All that can make quite the difference.

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#26 : April 19, 2013, 10:44:35 AM

i dont think being a GM is as easy as this board makes it out to be.  see scot mccloughlan for that.
No one says it's easy. But you get $1 million per year for a reason. To get things right. If you can't handle it, there are a lot of other guys who would like $1 million per year to try and get things right.

It isn't easy and really the main thing people look at - draft picks might as well be a dart board. Go look at the top round for Ozzie Newsome over the years and see the "best" in the Biz not looking very smart,

The problem is that the guys Dom needs to pan out haven't - QB, pass rushers, CB's and the guys he pays a lot of money to over the years - SLB, OG, S, P, K - don't matter all that much even if they do produce out. The former doesn't bother me all that much - again picking players is a crap shoot - the latter makes me question his vision and long-term plans. He's been lucky thus far because he hasn't had to pay his QB or any pass rusher but we all hope that changes. When/if it does all his expensive non-players will become an issue. As long as we're bad his cap "problems" don't really manifest themselves.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

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#27 : April 19, 2013, 10:44:39 AM

i dont think being a GM is as easy as this board makes it out to be.  see scot mccloughlan for that.
No one says it's easy. But you get $1 million per year for a reason. To get things right. If you can't handle it, there are a lot of other guys who would like $1 million per year to try and get things right.

I'll do it for $100K

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#28 : April 19, 2013, 10:46:19 AM

Maybe you should try reading posts you are replying to for once, see those bits that are bolded, THAT is why they went for Bowers over Houston.
Lets see do we take the flyer on the guy with #1 overall potential 51 picks later
OR
Do we take the guy viewed as a late first rounder just 20(ish) picks later.

Also hindsight isn't loser talk, it's just something morons don't understand.
Who cares if the Bucs had him in for a pre draft visit, it doesn't mean they knew what he was, you think the Chargers didn't have Ryan Leaf in for a visit or the Raiders visit with Russell.
It's great to know what we know now and say "we should have done this" but that isn't reality, you go with what you know at the time.
Also whats to say that Houston would have 15.5 sacks if he came to Tampa, different teammates, different coaching, different schemes, different schedules. All that can make quite the difference.
A lot of players at one time had "#1 overall potential". Brady Quinn was once thought to have #1 overall potential. Somehow all the other teams decided Bowers wasn't too good of a value to pass up. They didn't care people on TV thought Bowers may go #1 overall four months before the draft.

And if the Bucs didn't know who Justin Houston was after having him inside their building, people should be fired. That's what they're paid to do.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#29 : April 19, 2013, 10:47:17 AM

You only have to look at Bowers, this was a potential #1 overall based on pure talent, using a 2nd rounder to get that talent and risking how well he recovered from injury was worth a shot.
The guy who has 4.5 sacks in two seasons? That's an example of a good move?
Isn't hindsight a great thing, if you bothered to read what was actually said it was that his talent was worth a shot, taking a risk on injury.
You do know what taking a risk means don't you?
It means he might not recover and as luck would have it he has had injury issues.
He was still worth taking a flyer on.
Why not take a flyer on Justin Houston, who was also seen as a 1st round draft pick, who slipped to the 3rd round, and now has 15.5 sacks in two seasons.
Because he wasn't available when we were picking due to us taking a flyer on Bowers who as previously mentioned had #1 overall talent as an upside rather than a late first rounder.
Who knows what might have happened if he'd fallen another half a round, Dom might have weighed the options and risked that pick too instead of going with Foster.
Those 15.5 sacks are great but once again it's all hindsight, if there was no risk involved in picks and GMs knew exactly what they were getting you wouldn't see things like the Pats getting Brady in the 6th round of the same draft they wasted a second rounder on the "legendary" Adrian Klemm and Courtney Brown went #1 overall.
My point why not take a flyer on Houston instead of Bowers? And it's not hindsight. A few of us liked Justin Houston before the draft. The Bucs had him in for a pre-draft visit. They knew who he was. He didn't come out of thin air.

All this talk about "hindsight" talk is loser talk. It's the same thing posters on here said about Bruce Allen 5-6 years ago as his picks were busting left and right.
Maybe you should try reading posts you are replying to for once, see those bits that are bolded, THAT is why they went for Bowers over Houston.
Lets see do we take the flyer on the guy with #1 overall potential 51 picks later
OR
Do we take the guy viewed as a late first rounder just 20(ish) picks later.

Also hindsight isn't loser talk, it's just something morons don't understand.
Who cares if the Bucs had him in for a pre draft visit, it doesn't mean they knew what he was, you think the Chargers didn't have Ryan Leaf in for a visit or the Raiders visit with Russell.
It's great to know what we know now and say "we should have done this" but that isn't reality, you go with what you know at the time.
Also whats to say that Houston would have 15.5 sacks if he came to Tampa, different teammates, different coaching, different schemes, different schedules. All that can make quite the difference.

So what I am hearing you say is that GM's should never be fired since all evaluation is made with hindsight?
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