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GameTime

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#15 : May 05, 2013, 01:21:27 PM

Pass rush doesn't win games, teams do.

\"Lets put the O back in Country\"

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#16 : May 05, 2013, 01:32:08 PM

Funny how people would be so excited if we drafted a DE in the 1st and 2nd rounds, but the fact that Claiborne (1st Rounder) and Bowers (2nd Rounder) are returning at full strength is so easily discounted.

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#17 : May 05, 2013, 01:53:41 PM

Funny how people would be so excited if we drafted a DE in the 1st and 2nd rounds, but the fact that Claiborne (1st Rounder) and Bowers (2nd Rounder) are returning at full strength is so easily discounted.

It's not discounted, at least not by me. But there are questions.

For example, who is backing them up? They are not going to play a full game every game. It isn't realistic. Having a solid rotation of guys all over the line is a good investment. Whether it's just drafted guys, or someone in FA, the number three guy in the DE position needs to be quality to some extent.

The other worry I have is exactly what you said, they both came back from injuries. Now, they might not be the worst injuries ever, but they are case for concern. Until we see them in real game time situations, we don't really know if they'll hold up, let alone handle an entire season. Bowers knee has been said to be degenerative, so that's also a worry.

Personally, I think they will do well despite these things. But it's not like good players on the bucs haven't had back to back IR seasons before. 

Naismith was right about Revis. Everyone else is a dummy.

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#18 : May 05, 2013, 02:03:38 PM

The Bucs dealt with the primary position of need with the first and second round picks - defensive back.  In the third round the dealt with another gaping hole at back up QB.  In the forth and fifth rounds they dealt with the defensive line.  Where is the gripe?  It's not like they had 5 picks in the first 2 rounds.  They worked with what they had.  You may not like the D line picks, but you can't say they didn't address them as timely as possible.

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#19 : May 05, 2013, 02:08:07 PM

Bowers can make the same impact Bennett did if not better. Just having clayborn back with Proven backups is good enough. Not to mention Safety's can roam with Revis on the field.

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#20 : May 05, 2013, 02:16:05 PM

Funny how people would be so excited if we drafted a DE in the 1st and 2nd rounds, but the fact that Claiborne (1st Rounder) and Bowers (2nd Rounder) are returning at full strength is so easily discounted.

It's not discounted, at least not by me. But there are questions.

For example, who is backing them up? They are not going to play a full game every game. It isn't realistic. Having a solid rotation of guys all over the line is a good investment. Whether it's just drafted guys, or someone in FA, the number three guy in the DE position needs to be quality to some extent.

The other worry I have is exactly what you said, they both came back from injuries. Now, they might not be the worst injuries ever, but they are case for concern. Until we see them in real game time situations, we don't really know if they'll hold up, let alone handle an entire season. Bowers knee has been said to be degenerative, so that's also a worry.

Personally, I think they will do well despite these things. But it's not like good players on the bucs haven't had back to back IR seasons before.

Of course there are always questions and every team has the unknown of possible injuries, but Netwalkers right, they did address the need in the draft and there will still be FA options available before the season begins.We did lose Miller and Bennet, but I don't think it will be too difficult to replace Miller and although I liked the way Bennett played, he still has an injured shoulder and  was only signed to a 1 year deal as a backup.

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#21 : May 05, 2013, 02:44:53 PM

His freeman comment was more of a thrown in at the end.  The more interesting comment was how unless Bowers and the DL don't vastly improve the new additions in the secondary wont really matter.  Now this shouldn't be a new revolution to anyone but it does seem to be ignored for the most part on this board in the excitement of the Revis trade.  Dom and Schiano apparently seem willing to place their fates in this group but they (especially Dom) have miscalculated before.  I don't feel comfortable with this front end.

Unlike the defenses Sapp played in, Schiano's scheme doesn't expect the DL to be playmakers.  Their job is to control gaps and manipulate the OL to allow the back seven to make plays.


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#22 : May 05, 2013, 03:35:39 PM


The negative posters will always focus on the worst case scenarios.

Sapp making up crap. Not surprised.

On the D Line, I'll wait to see who else they add and how they actually play once the games start.

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#23 : May 05, 2013, 03:39:37 PM

Okay, the problem is that the fans see Bennett as a loss and the team saw Bennett as an impediment. Prior to FA, Bennett made it clear he was looking for starters money and the Bucs decided that they wanted Bowers to be their starter and weren't going to play starters money to a rotational guy. The fact that Bennett later eventually settled for less money and a backup position in Seattle can't be blamed on Dom as Bennett was already over being willing to come back to the Bucs in a backup role. He already had made his decision that with the Bucs, he wanted starters money.

All that said, two years ago Bennett was basically a nobody, just a guy with potential. I don't see any difference between Bennett of two years ago and guys like Means or Gholston or even Te'o-Nesheim. In fact, Te'o-Nesheim had approximately the same season that Bennett did prior to last year in terms of production. I suspect that he's our 3rd rotational end while Means and Gholston get up to speed. Assuming that Clayborn and Bowers are healthy, they are playing 70-80 percent of the defensive snaps anyway. I think the other guys can be just as effective as Bennett would have been in a backup role.
You can't sign stars at every position and if there wasn't a salary cap, I suspect that the Bucs would add some more vets that would push the rookies back down, but this is how

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HolyBuc

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#24 : May 05, 2013, 04:10:38 PM

We've had 50 combined sacks in the last two seasons which is easily the worst in the NFL. Outside of a 5th round flyer on Means, we did zero to improve that pass rush. In fact, we let our best pass rusher go in free agency. Any fan that doesn't see this as a potential problem, must have their head in the sand.

How many sacks did the Bucs have last year against Philly?   How many yards did Philly throw for?   Point is front 4 and back 4 can only do so much by themselves, they need to do it together.   Or have a first ballot hall of fame DT who can rush the passer and a tall beastly DE who averages over 10 sacks a game.  I will be interested to see how an all-pro CB and safety improve tis defense.

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#25 : May 05, 2013, 04:18:57 PM

Okay, the problem is that the fans see Bennett as a loss and the team saw Bennett as an impediment. Prior to FA, Bennett made it clear he was looking for starters money and the Bucs decided that they wanted Bowers to be their starter and weren't going to play starters money to a rotational guy. The fact that Bennett later eventually settled for less money and a backup position in Seattle can't be blamed on Dom as Bennett was already over being willing to come back to the Bucs in a backup role. He already had made his decision that with the Bucs, he wanted starters money.

All that said, two years ago Bennett was basically a nobody, just a guy with potential. I don't see any difference between Bennett of two years ago and guys like Means or Gholston or even Te'o-Nesheim. In fact, Te'o-Nesheim had approximately the same season that Bennett did prior to last year in terms of production. I suspect that he's our 3rd rotational end while Means and Gholston get up to speed. Assuming that Clayborn and Bowers are healthy, they are playing 70-80 percent of the defensive snaps anyway. I think the other guys can be just as effective as Bennett would have been in a backup role.
You can't sign stars at every position and if there wasn't a salary cap, I suspect that the Bucs would add some more vets that would push the rookies back down, but this is how


1. Why would Bennett have been a back up and Bowers starting? Why would they not have competed in camp and preseason to see who could earn it? I understand if the Bucs want Bowers to be that guy since they spent a 2nd round pick on him....but you have to earn it. Bowers has never outplayed Bennett, so to this point in time I don't see how anyone could say he has earned it. Now it will be handed to him.

2. Spin it anyway you want, but Bennett was top 5 in the NFL for TFL last year and had 9 sacks. He was by far our most productive defensive lineman. Letting him walk, and not replacing him will hurt.

3. Gholston is not a pass rusher. Never has been and never will be. He is a big, slow run stuffing LDE. If he ends up being great, it will still have no effect on our pass rush. Fingers crossed for Means, cause he is the only quick twitch speed rusher we added to the roster. It's a long shot, but we need him to be good.
: May 05, 2013, 04:26:35 PM JDouble


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#26 : May 05, 2013, 04:23:39 PM

It's funny to see some of you try to make an argument for pass rush not being important. I mean...wow. Can't we just be real and admit our pass rush is a concern and could be our pitfall this season? Nobody wants us to fail, but denying that a poor pass rush will doom us, or any team, is just denial at it's finest.


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#27 : May 05, 2013, 04:34:26 PM

Both Bennett and miller were overrated Jdub. Maybe not equally overrated, but both got more praise than they deserved.

Also..

In this system, it seems as though Schiano wants LBers and DB blitzing, rather than continuously counting on the front four. So to me, it becomes more of a question as to whether or not DE is all that important in this system. Or at least viewed that way. They were even dropping them back into coverage at times, which I thought was retarded. Could be Schiano doesn't think much of the DE position?

No matter. The loss of Bennett and miller aren't tragic, and the guys they have could play just as well (if they stay healthy). At least that's my opinion.


Naismith was right about Revis. Everyone else is a dummy.

HolyBuc

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#28 : May 05, 2013, 04:50:50 PM

It's funny to see some of you try to make an argument for pass rush not being important. I mean...wow. Can't we just be real and admit our pass rush is a concern and could be our pitfall this season? Nobody wants us to fail, but denying that a poor pass rush will doom us, or any team, is just denial at it's finest.

Pass rushing and protecting the passer are the two most important things teams need to do win football games IMO.  The point I was trying to make is I saw a lot of QBs last year getting rid of the football very very quickly.  I think this team needs to practice their pressure packages, I have no problem with teams bringing a ton of extra players.  They need to at least lay a hit on the QB when they blitz.  Far too many times last year you would see a blitz with no pressure getting home to the QB. 

How long does a good pass rush need to get to a QB?   I would say at least 3 seconds.  When it gets closer to the season I will watch some of last year games.  I'm curious if QBs got rid of the ball fast or I was just imagining it.

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#29 : May 05, 2013, 05:03:44 PM

Clayborn had 7.5 sacks as a rookie. I'm sure that he can hit 10 sacks at least and be better than any first round DE would have been this year. He's very underrated on these boards. He was looking pretty good in the first 2 games last season.
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