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OneTruth

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#75 : May 12, 2013, 06:35:12 AM

I find it funny that you guys have to fight even when you agree.

I will make it easier for you both. My point is that if you have to define finitely what is and what is not something, i.e. marriage, then it is a privilege or a benefit not a right. If all you have to do is legislate the consequence of exercising an action, then it is a right. Both of you are smart enough to come up with a "yea but what if .." so I say what I say in the hope you will at least understand the point. If not, then, whatever :)

For example both of you agree that gay marriage is a right, however I am willing to bet that neither one of you support someones "right" to marry 550 women, a dog, a camel and a 12 year old boy.  Therefore the argument is not if marriage is a right, but where do we draw the line of the privilege. Bit like defining a hooker. If you pay someone $50 she is a whore, pay $500 and she is a " call girl. You guys disagree with me, but c'est la vie. It is what it is. That is my opinion.

For both of your benefit, my opposition to gay marriage has nothing to do with legal rights, civil unions or however you want to phrase it. For me, as a church going Catholic I consider Marriage as one the 7 holy sacraments.

You can ask why should I "impose" my religious beliefs on you? Well, I am and I am not. I could bounce back and say if I keep silent you are imposing your beliefs on me. It really doesn't matter if they are religious, political or whatever, they are beliefs that I do no agree with. But, my argument is that my judgement is influenced by my religious beliefs, therefore I vote and I choose accordingly. Someone who says this is what I believe in but I will not impose my beliefs on anyone else is not only a liar, but has no moral integrity. At best they are an opportunist, worst case ........

exceptional response. couldn't have said it better myself. If I impose my beliefs on others then I am a Jesus freak but if I remain silent then I am being I and my children (who are always watching) am being imposed upon...so very true

OneTruth

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#76 : May 12, 2013, 06:41:33 AM

one simple issue must be addressed to understand why this is even a debate.

Do you think being gay is a choice or not? I know it is a choice therefore my opinion coincides with Spartan's. Those sheep that are in agreement with big media think gays are born as such and therefor should be granted equal rights that heterosexual's have. That is really the base of the argument.

Spartan I agree with you.... but your argument contains a major fallacy ~ slippery slope.

CalcuttaRain

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#77 : May 12, 2013, 07:25:55 AM

one simple issue must be addressed to understand why this is even a debate.

Do you think being gay is a choice or not? I know it is a choice therefore my opinion coincides with Spartan's. Those sheep that are in agreement with big media think gays are born as such and therefor should be granted equal rights that heterosexual's have. That is really the base of the argument.

Spartan I agree with you.... but your argument contains a major fallacy ~ slippery slope.

The "God Would Never Create A Fag" argument. Bigotry of the highest order.  Although few people of faith are nuts like OT, his statement above is a very good indication of the challenge faced by homosexuals. There is a large segment of the population who think gay must be a choice because to think otherwise would make them less "devout"

Interesting dynamic when people use religion as a justification for hate. People blow themselves and others up using a similar rationale and we call the extremists. Beware of any who says "I know" because God tells me so. One Truth "knows" homosexuality is a choice because God wouldn't have it any other way ...wow.
: May 12, 2013, 07:28:09 AM VinBucFan

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Dolorous Jason

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#78 : May 12, 2013, 08:11:56 AM

I am all for limited government and freedom but people in a society do not love in bubbles. One person's freedom is another person's infringement. As long as we pay taxes and taxes are used for social services many people will be for the government rewarding behavior that reduces the load on government benefits

I suppose I see the point you are trying to make now , I just don't agree with it.

I don't see how some people keeping multiple wives would burden the social safety net beyond it's means , or have much effect on the bottom line at all. The social safety net is already broken and burdened way beyond it's ability to pay for itself , and it has nothing to do with marriage law.
: May 12, 2013, 08:26:05 AM Fire Mark Dummynik

What is your point? I was wrong? Ok. You win. I was wrong.

           

Dolorous Jason

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#79 : May 12, 2013, 08:25:25 AM




For example both of you agree that gay marriage is a right, however I am willing to bet that neither one of you support someones "right" to marry 550 women, a dog, a camel and a 12 year old boy.  Therefore the argument is not if marriage is a right, but where do we draw the line of the privilege.



You draw the line between consenting adults . A child , a dog , or a camel can not give proper consent . A man and 550 women can.


Consenting adults engaging in a contract that doesn't interfere with or aggress on you in any way whatsoever should be none of your concern. Ask yourself why you REALLY care ?


What is your point? I was wrong? Ok. You win. I was wrong.

           

spartan

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#80 : May 12, 2013, 10:23:56 AM

My point Vin is that people seem to accept there are limitations that can be imposed on marriage, they simply have differing opinions on what those limitations are.

I haven't really seen anyone here arguing against plural marriage for the purposes of morality, except Vince maybe. Myself and DJ have both said that we do not agree with that limitation being imposed, and JG? argued against it from a legal prospective, i.e. contract law, not from a moral one.

I addressed from the legal perspective not the morality perspective, but Spartans comment is backwards its not about limitations on marriage it's about limitations on extending benefits associated with marriage really

In which case this has nothing to do with Marriage then does it?

Note that I personally have said nothing about choices or lifestyles during this conversation. The reason being that regardless of my personal thoughts and feelings, it would waylay the conversation, as is happening now.
The crux of this issues comes down to one thing, is the push for Gay marriage to do with rights and tolerance, or it is all about acceptance?

If it was truly about rights, and only about rights, then as I say, the premise that the definition of marriage has limitations and, can be changed would not be open to debate. Also, if rights were the main goal, then a compromise would be sought. However, Gay Activists want it all as defined by them.  How things transpire only time will tell, but I am sorry, but you will have a very hard time persuading me that this is about "rights".

spartan

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#81 : May 12, 2013, 10:37:00 AM

one simple issue must be addressed to understand why this is even a debate.

Do you think being gay is a choice or not? I know it is a choice therefore my opinion coincides with Spartan's. Those sheep that are in agreement with big media think gays are born as such and therefor should be granted equal rights that heterosexual's have. That is really the base of the argument.

Spartan I agree with you.... but your argument contains a major fallacy ~ slippery slope.

The "God Would Never Create A Fag" argument. Bigotry of the highest order.  Although few people of faith are nuts like OT, his statement above is a very good indication of the challenge faced by homosexuals. There is a large segment of the population who think gay must be a choice because to think otherwise would make them less "devout"

Interesting dynamic when people use religion as a justification for hate. People blow themselves and others up using a similar rationale and we call the extremists. Beware of any who says "I know" because God tells me so. One Truth "knows" homosexuality is a choice because God wouldn't have it any other way ...wow.

Um, just want to point out that I never said homosexuality is a choice.

For some I am pretty confident that is so, due to their environment, background, abuse, broken hearts, Mommy did not tuck them up in bed at night or whatever. Consider it some kind of defensive mechanism in which they seek acceptance outside of their zone of failure/pain etc

Others not so much. But, my standpoint is love the sinner ....


Dolorous Jason

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#82 : May 12, 2013, 10:47:31 AM

For the religous people: Ever consider it could be both ?

Ever think God doesn't like it if someone actually does freely choose to be homosexual , but forgives the people who are born with the chemical imbalance that makes them so ?

What is your point? I was wrong? Ok. You win. I was wrong.

           

spartan

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#83 : May 12, 2013, 11:40:56 AM

For the religous people: Ever consider it could be both ?

Ever think God doesn't like it if someone actually does freely choose to be homosexual , but forgives the people who are born with the chemical imbalance that makes them so ?

Absolutely. But just so the conversation doesn't career off a cliff, I see the chemical imbalance comment as just an example because nobody really knows why some people are gay.

It is a little more in depth than simply forgiving the sinner, but that is pretty much the stance of the Catholic Church.

Dolorous Jason

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#84 : May 12, 2013, 12:15:41 PM

We all know that guy who's been super-feminine his entire life and cant help it. Clearly an imbalance somewhere and not a choice.

What is your point? I was wrong? Ok. You win. I was wrong.

           

CalcuttaRain

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#85 : May 12, 2013, 05:41:15 PM

Note that I personally have said nothing about choices or lifestyles during this conversation. The reason being that regardless of my personal thoughts and feelings, it would waylay the conversation, as is happening now.
The crux of this issues comes down to one thing, is the push for Gay marriage to do with rights and tolerance, or it is all about acceptance?

1. you haven't typed that you think it is a choice but that is what you think based on your other comments
2. The crux of the issue is actually about whether one believes homosexuality is a choice because I presume people would not discriminate against a person who could not or did not control his/her fate.

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\\\\\\\'s Cancer Center

CalcuttaRain

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#86 : May 12, 2013, 05:46:04 PM

For some I am pretty confident that is so, due to their environment, background, abuse, broken hearts, Mommy did not tuck them up in bed at night or whatever. Consider it some kind of defensive mechanism in which they seek acceptance outside of their zone of failure/pain etc

Calling it behavioral (i.e. a reaction to environment etc) is still calling it a choice.  That leads to the same simple question I have asked the board several times with no response: when many in society flatly discriminate against homosexuals and homosexuals can be killed in certain areas and others equate their actions with pedophilia and bestiality, WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD ANYONE CHOOSE TO BE GAY?

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\\\\\\\'s Cancer Center

Cyrus

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#87 : May 12, 2013, 07:49:34 PM

"Calling it behavioral (i.e. a reaction to environment etc) is still calling it a choice."

Which it can be. You would have to believe that environment or social norms do not effect choices of sexual behavior to deny it.  Environment or social norms can and do effect choices in sexual behavior. Which is also the reason that asking the question of "why would one choose to be gay" is not accurate either. I addressed this earlier relating to the sexual continuum.

CalcuttaRain

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#88 : May 12, 2013, 07:53:28 PM

"Calling it behavioral (i.e. a reaction to environment etc) is still calling it a choice."

Which it can be. You would have to believe that environment or social norms do not effect choices of sexual behavior to deny it.  Environment or social norms can and do effect choices in sexual behavior. Which is also the reason that asking the question of "why would one choose to be gay" is not accurate either. I addressed this earlier relating to the sexual continuum.

lol .. . right . . . holy obvious strawman Batman .. in fact, that might be the least creative strawman ever

Why would someone choose to be gay?

Simple question
: May 12, 2013, 07:59:26 PM VinBucFan

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\\\\\\\'s Cancer Center

Cyrus

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#89 : May 12, 2013, 08:01:57 PM

"Simple question "

Sprung from a simple mind.
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