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VinBucFan

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#510 : June 27, 2013, 02:53:23 PM

The majority of what you euphemistically refer to as "loopholes" are actually a failure to enforce existing laws. Expecting that to change by adding more laws is lunacy,  and yet the bread and butter of your ilk.

That's actually untrue. The gun show loophole is a lapse in the law. It is perfectly legal.

+1

VinBucFan

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#511 : June 27, 2013, 02:58:09 PM

FACT- The US has a very high murder rate (both gun-related and other) compared to western European countries.

FACT- Murder is against the law in ALL 50 States and DC

FACT- all the perpetrators that caused the high US murder rate BROKE AT LEAST ONE LAW

FACT- most murders have previously committed other serious crimes. 67% of murderers have a prior arrest record http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/vfluc.txt

Question: What will keep law breakers from breaking more laws if we pass more gun laws?

Question: What is the purpose of passing restrictive gun laws when most murderers show no intent of obeying most laws?

Question: Wouldn't we be better served by enforcing our existing laws and lengthening the sentences of current law breakers, especially those that commit violent crimes?

I would be thrilled if VIOLENT criminals were locked away forever.  We could debate when someone is classified as a "violent criminal" but I that is a great idea.  BUT gun violence is NOT only at the hands of violent criminals.  That is the logical flaw in your comments, there will always be people that break the law, but there are alos people that would not buy a gun with a long waiting period or a background check etc.

California has fairly restrictive gun laws. The Sanat Monica killer was able to kill people with a gun but to do it he had to be very motivated. he was stopped by a background check, so he then exploited other loopholes to BUILD the gun in his home.  Many, many people are not that motivated, the typical example being a guy who just lost a job oir found his girlfriend cheating . .  or the child who happens upon a gun.

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#512 : June 27, 2013, 02:59:01 PM

The majority of what you euphemistically refer to as "loopholes" are actually a failure to enforce existing laws. Expecting that to change by adding more laws is lunacy,  and yet the bread and butter of your ilk.

That's actually untrue. The gun show loophole is a lapse in the law. It is perfectly legal.

+1

That is NOT correct.  It is perfectly legal for gunshow vendors to not do checks however, you guys are framing the failure to enforce as a hole in the law.  This is untrue unless you really do have some sinister intentions behind these background checks you speak of because it is illegal for convicted felons to buy or own guns.  Enforce it.
: June 27, 2013, 03:00:46 PM jbear

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#513 : June 27, 2013, 03:05:20 PM

The majority of what you euphemistically refer to as "loopholes" are actually a failure to enforce existing laws. Expecting that to change by adding more laws is lunacy,  and yet the bread and butter of your ilk.

That's actually untrue. The gun show loophole is a lapse in the law. It is perfectly legal.

But who do these checks weed out?  My understanding is we are talking about convicted felons.  It is illegal for them to own or buy guns therefore it is an enforcement issue.  Just because you find a way to do something you aren't allowed to do doesn't mean you're allowed to do it.  "They don't check there so it's ok."  no way.

I posted an article earlier with a gang member saying they wouldnt have bought guns with background checks. 

Criminals cant get guns if they want to BUT part of the reason for that is that guns are so easy to get LEGALLY . . . because of loopholes like private seller and gun shows . .  that they are literally EVERYWHERE.   

Looks at the article I posted, five gang bangers go and buy guns with cash, no questions asked . .  they buy a lot of guns . .  those guns are falling into the hands of a lot of people because they went out an open door (gun sale loophole)

If you have 300 million guns in  a society with only about that many people . . . its only common sense that you are going to have a lot of people hurt and killed by guns. The petty thief who never wnats to use a gun and hopes not to kill someone, carries a gun because its easy and available . . . a store clerk gets shot.  A dad wants a gun for security, his child finds it and kills herself.   A guy learns his girlfriend is cheating on him, he goes home drunk and beats her up . . . unless a gun is around . .  he's drunk and he kills her.  One person dead (and all the ripples that come with that) . .  . another in jail (and all the costs and ripples that come with that).

Common sense the more guns that are around the more likely gun violence becomes

VinBucFan

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#514 : June 27, 2013, 03:06:12 PM

The majority of what you euphemistically refer to as "loopholes" are actually a failure to enforce existing laws. Expecting that to change by adding more laws is lunacy,  and yet the bread and butter of your ilk.

That's actually untrue. The gun show loophole is a lapse in the law. It is perfectly legal.

+1

That is NOT correct.  It is perfectly legal for gunshow vendors to not do checks however, you guys are framing the failure to enforce as a hole in the law.  This is untrue unless you really do have some sinister intentions behind these background checks you speak of because it is illegal for convicted felons to buy or own guns.  Enforce it.

I dont follow that one . . sorry

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#515 : June 27, 2013, 03:16:27 PM

"According to surveys DOJ conducted of state prison inmates during 2004 (the most recent year of data available), only two percent who owned a gun at the time of their offense bought it at either a gun show or flea market. About 10 percent said they purchased their gun from a retail shop or pawnshop, 37 percent obtained it from family or friends, and another 40 percent obtained it from an illegal source."

Which might be a more effective utilization of resources, focusing on the two percent or the forty percent? Hmmm... if only there was some anecdotal evidence about one guy buying pistols at a gun show, I could make up my mind using emotion instead of logic...

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#516 : June 27, 2013, 04:09:59 PM



Common sense the more guns that are around the more likely gun violence becomes

Except the statistics don't bear that out ....then it goes from common sense to you and CBW making excuses for why your sense isn't actually that common.

What is your point? I was wrong? Ok. You win. I was wrong.

           

VinBucFan

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#517 : June 27, 2013, 04:14:41 PM



Common sense the more guns that are around the more likely gun violence becomes

Except the statistics don't bear that out ....then it goes from common sense to you and CBW making excuses for why your sense isn't actually that common.

sure they do there are statistics everywhere . . .  common sense is more rare . . .

VinBucFan

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#518 : June 27, 2013, 04:16:45 PM

Illegal Guns often start their life as LEGAL GUNS . . .  thus . . .the more legal guns the more chance they become illegal guns . . . and the more chance that  legal guns cause other harm and death  . .  . accidents, suicides etc.

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#519 : June 27, 2013, 04:21:27 PM

VinBucFan:
"Illegal Guns often start their life as LEGAL GUNS"

Thanks for clearing that up. Could you provide some percentages as to how many guns actually do start their life as illegal guns?

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#520 : June 27, 2013, 04:22:09 PM

Illegal Guns often start their life as LEGAL GUNS . . .  thus . . .the more legal guns the more chance they become illegal guns . . . and the more chance that  legal guns cause other harm and death  . .  . accidents, suicides etc.

I can't imagine why anyone would think you might advocate for banning all guns, PBBoy.


Bucfucious

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#521 : June 27, 2013, 04:24:12 PM

Stolen vehicles often start their life as LEGAL VEHICLES . . .  thus . . .the more legal vehicles the more chance they become illegal vehicles . . . and the more chance that  legal vehicles cause other harm and death  . .  . accidents, suicides etc

VinBucFan

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#522 : June 27, 2013, 04:27:06 PM

Illegal Guns often start their life as LEGAL GUNS . . .  thus . . .the more legal guns the more chance they become illegal guns . . . and the more chance that  legal guns cause other harm and death  . .  . accidents, suicides etc.

I can't imagine why anyone would think you might advocate for banning all guns, PBBoy.

yeah .  . even though I have said the opposite many times . . .  thinking is also at a premium around here . .

Bucfucious

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#523 : June 27, 2013, 04:28:23 PM

"even though I have said the opposite many times"

Does your assurance carry such little weight?

John Galt?

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#524 : June 27, 2013, 04:29:02 PM

Illegal Gun users often start their life as LEGAL GUNS babies . . .  thus . . .the more legal guns babies the more chance they become illegal gun users . . . and the more chance that  legal guns babies cause other harm and death  . .  . accidents, suicides etc.


I did not change the logical structure of your post, but merely switched 2 nouns. If it now seems absurd and illogical, it is because of the original unchanged structure of your argument.

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