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GameTime

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#135 : June 13, 2013, 07:32:36 AM

I'm basing it on how Dom signed them, not based on my opinion of their play.  The fact that he was signing guys to starter deals who were better served as depth is one reason to question his effectiveness.
for this debate though i dont think it matters how dom signed them.  the fact that he overpaid role players/depth doesnt mean that that the roster was strong.

but now i realize the thread is also "allen vs dominik".  i was thinking it was more about how stocked the roster was when dominik took over.  i think we have a couple different debates flowing.

my simplistic view - the roster was pretty bad, dominik made some early mistakes while saving money, dominik fixed mistakes and got a better HC, dominik started making better decisions and spending money.

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#136 : June 13, 2013, 08:20:01 AM

for this debate though i dont think it matters how dom signed them.  the fact that he overpaid role players/depth doesnt mean that that the roster was strong.

but now i realize the thread is also "allen vs dominik".  i was thinking it was more about how stocked the roster was when dominik took over.  i think we have a couple different debates flowing.

my simplistic view - the roster was pretty bad, dominik made some early mistakes while saving money, dominik fixed mistakes and got a better HC, dominik started making better decisions and spending money.
Yes, there are two different debates going on. Were Bruce Allen and Jon Gruden good at acquiring consistently performing players? Absolutely not. Did Mark Dominik treat Bruce Allen and Jon Gruden's players as if they were consistently performing? Absolutely yes. It's a shame it took Dominik 2-3 years to figure out what many of us knew immediately.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#137 : June 13, 2013, 08:36:41 AM

FRG,  that's because Dominik was in the scouting department when we acquired those guys. He probably played a big part in their acquisition.

What is your point? I was wrong? Ok. You win. I was wrong.

           

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#138 : June 13, 2013, 08:41:09 AM

FRG,  that's because Dominik was in the scouting department when we acquired those guys. He probably played a big part in their acquisition.

Could be wrong but wasn't he on the pro personnel side?

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#139 : June 13, 2013, 08:45:47 AM

Was he?  In that case he's just an idiot,  lol.

What is your point? I was wrong? Ok. You win. I was wrong.

           

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#140 : June 13, 2013, 09:54:07 AM

1. If anyone disagrees that Allen/Gru were terrible at drafting/only signed washed up FAs, they're hopeless

2. Obviously Dom made mistakes when signing Clayton/Ward/Black/etc, but what GMs don't make mistakes?

3. Did Dom giving money to Clayton/Black/Ward put us in cap hell? NO. He took a risk, but one that wasnt costly. So what's the problem? He obviously learned from his mistakes, look at the Free Agents we've gotten recently. VJax, Nicks, Goldson, etc etc.

I guarantee you Allen would've signed Clayton/Black/Ward AND have put us in cap hell.


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#141 : June 13, 2013, 10:03:53 AM

Allen took over a tight cap situation but had a roster filled with talent that was one year removed from being world champs. When Dom took over five years later in 2009, he was handed a roster that would have trouble winning games in the Arena League. THAT is Bruce Allen's legacy in Tampa. Twist it anyway you want, it won't change the truth.

baloney...  Dominik and Morris took a team that every other year made the playoffs and turned it into an expansion team. Thank God the Glazers fired Morris.  When Schiano came on board Dominik became a GM (in name only), and the results the last 2 years are due to Glazers opening their wallets and someone else making decisions on what free agents and draft picks to make.   Dominik is doing what he does best  ie " Write checks and make sure the budget restraints" are maintained. For those functions he is doing fine.


This is the 2008 roster that was left by Allen and handed to Dom for the 2009 season. Please look at it and admit you are wrong.

http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/tampa-bay-buccaneers/roster/2008

How many times under Dominik as GM have the made the playoffs?   That is the only answer worth anything.   

The entire roster was stripped of all its key players when Dom and Rah Rah took over., and the results were there for all to see as the Bucs who had been on the cusp of making the playoffs until Kiffin decided he was leaving and went into a tailspin.   Hey Dominik like McKay is a nice guy and he has value as a GM for the reasons I mentioned, but he is not a master of NFL personnel. As soon as Schiano came on board Dominik's responsibilities changed dramatically and the results are crystalline clear with what the Bucs have acquired the last 2 years with the Glazer's opening their wallets and someone else making decisions on the draft and players to acquire.

Giving him credit for the current Buc roster is misplaced.   Think anyone in the NFL would hire Dominik to be their GM?   I don't.   He fits his current role and responsibilities well but is not the typical GM.


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#142 : June 13, 2013, 10:07:29 AM

I guarantee you Allen would've signed Clayton/Black/Ward AND have put us in cap hell.
I seriously doubt that. Gruden pretty much hated Clayton and Clayton pretty much hated Gruden. They weren't staying married past 2008. Quincy Black didn't start a single game in the two years he played for Gruden. He probably wouldn't have been extended and if he were there's no way it would have been for $35 million. I suppose it's possible Gruden and Allen may have liked Derrick Ward as a free agent. There's also no evidence Gruden and Allen would have left the team in cap hell. The Bucs had a ton of cap room in 2007 and 2008. The reason Dominik inherited so much cap space was because of Allen.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#143 : June 13, 2013, 10:08:03 AM

1. If anyone disagrees that Allen/Gru were terrible at drafting/only signed washed up FAs, they're hopeless

2. Obviously Dom made mistakes when signing Clayton/Ward/Black/etc, but what GMs don't make mistakes?

3. Did Dom giving money to Clayton/Black/Ward put us in cap hell? NO. He took a risk, but one that wasnt costly. So what's the problem? He obviously learned from his mistakes, look at the Free Agents we've gotten recently. VJax, Nicks, Goldson, etc etc.

I guarantee you Allen would've signed Clayton/Black/Ward AND have put us in cap hell.

disagree 100% with your assertions.  Allen got the Bucs out of cap hell that McKay left the Bucs.  Glazer's spent little if anything during the Allen/Gruden regime.   hmmm?  Didn't the Redskins make the playoffs last season?  Who is the GM?  Dom not only made horrible mistakes with those signings but until Schiano arrived the drafting was very questionable..  Compare the drafting of Lewis and Benn with what happened last season and this?   What is different?    hint Not the GM!

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#144 : June 13, 2013, 10:16:49 AM

It shouldn't be any surprise that there was a large turnover in the roster when Gruden and Allen got fired.  I'm pretty sure it was going to happen to some extent anyway... but it isn't all about players.

The Morris/Jagodzinski/Bates hires set this team back.  Let us say that they didn't hit the ground running.


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#145 : June 13, 2013, 10:20:19 AM

It shouldn't be any surprise that there was a large turnover in the roster when Gruden and Allen got fired.  I'm pretty sure it was going to happen to some extent anyway... but it isn't all about players.

The Morris/Jagodzinski/Bates hires set this team back.  Let us say that they didn't hit the ground running.
Again, there was a decent turnover among the starters from 2008, but the vast majority of the replacements were already on the roster. Josh Freeman and Kellen Winslow were the only regular starters on the 2009 team who weren't on the roster in 2008. Unfortunately, Dominik spent 2-3 years figuring out all the young players Gruden drafted and wouldn't play weren't playing because they weren't very good.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

GameTime

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#146 : June 13, 2013, 10:49:28 AM

  Didn't the Redskins make the playoffs last season?  Who is the GM?  Dom not only made horrible mistakes with those signings but until Schiano arrived the drafting was very questionable..  Compare the drafting of Lewis and Benn with what happened last season and this?   What is different?    hint Not the GM!
can we compare the drafting of benn to the drafting of dexter jackson?

allen got the guys gruden wanted.  allen gets the guys shanahan wants.  dominik got the guys morris wanted.  dominik gets the guys schiano wants.

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#147 : June 13, 2013, 11:29:49 AM

1. If anyone disagrees that Allen/Gru were terrible at drafting/only signed washed up FAs, they're hopeless

2. Obviously Dom made mistakes when signing Clayton/Ward/Black/etc, but what GMs don't make mistakes?

3. Did Dom giving money to Clayton/Black/Ward put us in cap hell? NO. He took a risk, but one that wasnt costly. So what's the problem? He obviously learned from his mistakes, look at the Free Agents we've gotten recently. VJax, Nicks, Goldson, etc etc.

I guarantee you Allen would've signed Clayton/Black/Ward AND have put us in cap hell.

disagree 100% with your assertions.  Allen got the Bucs out of cap hell that McKay left the Bucs.  Glazer's spent little if anything during the Allen/Gruden regime.   hmmm?  Didn't the Redskins make the playoffs last season?  Who is the GM?  Dom not only made horrible mistakes with those signings but until Schiano arrived the drafting was very questionable..  Compare the drafting of Lewis and Benn with what happened last season and this?   What is different?    hint Not the GM!

I also doubt #3, but at one point you have to make a decision, did the Glazers stop spending or did Allen got us out of cap hell( and stop winning by). If anyone can hand out $300M in FA to build a respectable team, then anyone can stop spending and watch his HOF DT get a 10+ sack season elsewhere.

When looking at 2012 WAS, i see how  Allen got lucky with a good HC on sundays, winning a weak division with 10 wins. (we were 0-3 vs east btw, lol) Lets see how his search for a QB works out, not only did he used half draft on trading for RG3, he also used another one on Cousin.

Would have been nice if Allen would have drafted us any QB to speak of. I do not see Doms drafting as more questionable, compared to other NFL GMs, not just Allens horrible years at. He got us an above average QB, a pro bowl DT, a standout #2 WR, solid DEs and MLB etc , way before Schiano even got here. As if our 2012 draft had not a few questionable selections, making Schiano the only difference maker all of a sudden.

ps How i think about some of those signings, i already posted a few posts earlier.

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#148 : June 13, 2013, 11:38:09 AM

Using the Redskins success last year as an example of Allen doing a good job is a joke. Between Mike Shanahan and Daniel Snyder, I promise you that Allen has next to no say on who is signed and who is drafted. That team is 100% Mike Shanahan's baby.


Draft Aaron Donald



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#149 : June 13, 2013, 12:43:10 PM

  Think anyone in the NFL would hire Dominik to be their GM?   I don't.

I think this says a ton.  I would bet the house that MD would not get hired as a GM on another team in the NFL after this season if he gets canned for not making the playoffs for five straight years. 
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