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Biggs3535

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#165 : June 27, 2013, 01:00:48 PM

The....cheesy....one....will....be....misusing....ellipsis.....on....a....word-....by-......word.....basis.....pretty....soon......


John Galt?

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#166 : June 27, 2013, 01:22:12 PM


The Brady Bill was implemented in 1994 . . . . according to the DOJ . . . gun violence dropped at the fastest rate from 1993 to 1998


"While the number of firearm crimes declined over time, the percentage of all violence that involved a firearm did not change substantively, fluctuating between 6% and 9% over the same period. In 1993, 9% of all violence was committed with a firearm, compared to 8% in 2011."

(Note: gun hoseholds declining but percentage of all violence steady?)

"The majority of the decline in firearm-related homicides occurred between 1993 and 1998. Since 1999, the number of firearm homicides increased from 10,828 to 12,791 in 2006 before declining to 11,101 in 2011."

Her's the graph from the report:



Note: why the big drop from 1993 to 1998? The same graph occurs for non-fatal gun violence.  Why was there a big drop from 1993 to 1998?

Here's the actual report,:

http://info.publicintelligence.net/DoJ-GunViolence1993-2011.pdf


So because a graph shows that gun violence dropped from 93-98, it MUST be due to a law passed in '94??  Couldn't have anything to do with say THE LARGEST SUSTAINED PERIOD OF ECONOMIC GROWTH AND PROSPERITY IN HISTORY????? Or one of the longest periods of steady job growth and declining unemployment?????


Bucfucious

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#167 : June 27, 2013, 01:23:09 PM

It's actually percentage of households with guns, not number of guns, and not number of households with guns. We'll use an example to illustrate this.

Out of one hundred households, half of them have a single firearm each. That's 50% of households with guns. Number of households climbs all the time, so let's add fifty immigrant households to our example. Now, there are precisely the same number of firearms as before, and also the same number of households with guns, but percentage of "gun households" has declined to 33%.

Let's add more guns. The people who buy guns are often people who already have guns. So each of our 50 households buys an additional firearm. Now, there are twice as many firearms as before, but gun household percentage has still declined to 33%, and number of households with guns is the same.

It's a neat little trick, but it only fools those who are desperate to believe it to begin with.
: June 27, 2013, 01:30:38 PM Von Mises

John Galt?

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#168 : June 27, 2013, 01:36:02 PM







WOW it is like a perfect mirror image, but that means nothing, cause it must be that 1994 law ;;)
: June 27, 2013, 01:37:36 PM John Galt?


VinBucFan

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#169 : June 27, 2013, 01:41:40 PM


The Brady Bill was implemented in 1994 . . . . according to the DOJ . . . gun violence dropped at the fastest rate from 1993 to 1998


"While the number of firearm crimes declined over time, the percentage of all violence that involved a firearm did not change substantively, fluctuating between 6% and 9% over the same period. In 1993, 9% of all violence was committed with a firearm, compared to 8% in 2011."

(Note: gun hoseholds declining but percentage of all violence steady?)

"The majority of the decline in firearm-related homicides occurred between 1993 and 1998. Since 1999, the number of firearm homicides increased from 10,828 to 12,791 in 2006 before declining to 11,101 in 2011."

Her's the graph from the report:



Note: why the big drop from 1993 to 1998? The same graph occurs for non-fatal gun violence.  Why was there a big drop from 1993 to 1998?

Here's the actual report,:

http://info.publicintelligence.net/DoJ-GunViolence1993-2011.pdf


So because a graph shows that gun violence dropped from 93-98, it MUST be due to a law passed in '94??  Couldn't have anything to do with say THE LARGEST SUSTAINED PERIOD OF ECONOMIC GROWTH AND PROSPERITY IN HISTORY????? Or one of the longest periods of steady job growth and declining unemployment?????

where did I say MUST? I was asking the question and it could be both and MORE.  What's wrong with a gun law being effective?
: June 27, 2013, 01:46:05 PM VinBucFan


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#170 : June 27, 2013, 01:47:10 PM

What is the social interest served by requiring a background check at the gun dealer on 123 Main Street but not at the gun show at 456 Main Street?

NASHVILLE, Tenn. - A Nashville gang member told NewsChannel 5 Investigates that he often went to local gun shows to buy guns.

Jonathan Gutierrez said he and other gang members went to gun shows with large amounts of cash and had no problem buying guns despite having a criminal record.

He spoke to NewsChannel 5 from inside a high security prison in West Tennessee where he is serving life in prison for killing a rival gang member.

"I do regret the life I lived," Gutierrez said.

He said he joined a gang when he was nine years old, and by the time he was 13, he tattooed "Brown Pride" around his neck.

A few years later, he was convicted of shooting a rival gang member to death in what he called a war waged on the streets of Nashville.

"Where did you get the weapons that you used?" NewsChannel 5 Investigates asked.

Gutierrez responded,"Most of the weapons that were used were coming from the gun show."

Gutierrez said at age 15, he and other gang members went to local gun shows with cash and were easily able to buy four to six guns each visit.

"Anybody will sell you a gun," Gutierrez said. "I mean no matter what, if you want a gun and you show them the money, and tell them you want to buy it, he's going to definitely sell it to you."

Gutierrez said he bought most guns in the gun show parking lot, after going inside the show and picking out which guns he wanted.

Licensed dealers must run background checks, but private sales at gun shows require no background check.

NewsChannel 5 Investigates asked, "What if you had to go through a background check?"

Gutierrez responded, "I guess we wouldn't be buying none."
[/color]

some gun laws do work, not sure why that seems to be an issue


Bucfucious

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#171 : June 27, 2013, 01:53:16 PM

"Licensed dealers must run background checks"

jbear

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#172 : June 27, 2013, 02:06:56 PM

the laws that are truly important are not being enforced

with respect to gun shows and private sales, what is the law or laws that was not being enforced?   You'll note that Illuminator made the comment but has not answered that question

I think I did answer this already but for starters, the law that says convicted felons can't own or purchase firearms. Apparently that's who the background checks would be catching at the gunshows.  Otherwise you really are talking about background checking for stability or too many tattoos... not sure.

John Galt?

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#173 : June 27, 2013, 02:30:52 PM

What's wrong with a gun law being effective?


The same thing that is wrong with Unicorns and flying pigs and magic fairy dust.

FACT- Laws don't stop law breakers from breaking the laws.

Question: What does stop law breakers from breaking laws?
Answer: A police officer.
Why: BECAUSE HE HAS A GUN
: June 27, 2013, 02:32:45 PM John Galt?


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#174 : June 27, 2013, 02:47:35 PM


some gun laws do work, not sure why that seems to be an issue


Really??  Name one

Show me a state or municipality where a gun law was enacted and there was a substantial and dramatic drop in gun related crime.

And by "substantial and dramatic" I mean a reduction approaching zero, not a "20 something percent over ten years" drop but more like "State X went from 7200 gun crimes to 125"

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Now what does work is minimum sentencing laws.

In 1999 Florida passed the 10-20-Life law requiring a minimum sentence for any crime involving a gun.

According to the Florida Parole Commission (FPC), in 2000, there was a 26.4% decrease in violent, gun-related crime compared to 1998.
According to the Florida Department of Corrections (FDC), by 2004, violent gun crime rates had fallen 30% since 1998, and the Index Crime rate had reached the lowest in 34 years, despite a 16.8% increase in population during that time period.

Why does that work?

Because most gun crime offenders are multiple offenders and if a multiple offender is in prison for 20 yrs, it is highly unlikely he will commit a gun crime during that 20 yrs.


VinBucFan

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#175 : June 27, 2013, 02:47:49 PM

What's wrong with a gun law being effective?
The same thing that is wrong with Unicorns and flying pigs and magic fairy dust.

NASHVILLE, Tenn. - A Nashville gang member told NewsChannel 5 Investigates that he often went to local gun shows to buy guns.

Jonathan Gutierrez said he and other gang members went to gun shows with large amounts of cash and had no problem buying guns despite having a criminal record.

###
Licensed dealers must run background checks, but private sales at gun shows require no background check.

NewsChannel 5 Investigates asked, "What if you had to go through a background check?"

Gutierrez responded, "I guess we wouldn't be buying none."
[/b][/size][/color]


VinBucFan

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#176 : June 27, 2013, 02:49:27 PM


some gun laws do work, not sure why that seems to be an issue


Really??  Name one

Show me a state or municipality where a gun law was enacted and there was a substantial and dramatic drop in gun related crime.

And by "substantial and dramatic" I mean a reduction approaching zero, not a "20 something percent over ten years" drop but more like "State X went from 7200 gun crimes to 125"


why would a gun law have to have a "substantial and dramatic" impact to be worthwhile?

Btw, I am all for tougher sentencing, but the flaw in the discussion is you are limiting things to gun crime  . .  . gun violence is the issue in this country

gun ownerhsip by household has been dropping for decades, less houselholds with guns less gun violence, so why wouldnt laws restricting access to guns do the same thing?
: June 27, 2013, 02:52:24 PM VinBucFan


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#177 : June 27, 2013, 02:56:02 PM

Percentage of households with guns is still not the same as number of households with guns.

Bucfucious

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#178 : June 27, 2013, 02:58:07 PM

"why wouldnt laws restricting access to guns do the same thing?"

Laws affect the law abiding, law enforcement affects law breakers.

VinBucFan

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#179 : June 27, 2013, 03:12:09 PM

If you have 300 million guns in  a society with only about that many people . . . its only common sense that you are going to have a lot of people hurt and killed by guns.

The petty thief who never wants to use a gun and hopes not to kill someone, carries a gun because its easy and available . . . a store clerk gets shot.

A dad wants a gun for security, his child finds it and kills herself.   

A guy learns his girlfriend is cheating on him, he goes home drunk and beats her up . . . unless a gun is around . .  he's drunk and he kills her.  One person dead (and all the ripples that come with that) . .  . another in jail (and all the costs and ripples that come with that).

Common sense . . . .  the more guns that are around the more likely gun violence becomes . . . less households with guns less gun violence .  . . less guns in society through legal loopholes . .  the less guns that are lost or stolen or that otherwise fall into the hands of criminals.

It's not that complicated . ..  nor unreasonable . ..  to want to reduce access to guns in a country with 300 million guns and 30,000 gun deaths or so a year. The events I described above could happen with a bat or knife, but neither are as effective as a gun at killing and the ONLY purpose of a gun is killing . .  not true for a bat and a knife

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