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VinBucFan

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#45 : June 29, 2013, 09:27:36 PM


"virtually no improvement over four years"     -- lol

Well... with all that evidence, I might have to re-evaluate things.   ::)

You think the actual 4 years plays any role? Think it might be fair to consider one of the four is the most pathetic collapse of a team . .  maybe ever .  . new offense . .  nobody is saying the guy is Tom Brady . . . but what gives with his detractors just overselling the hate? There's enough evidence of inconsistent performance to make the point, no need to oversell it with "virtually no improvement over four years"

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#46 : June 29, 2013, 09:34:33 PM


"virtually no improvement over four years"     -- lol

Well... with all that evidence, I might have to re-evaluate things.   ::)

You think the actual 4 years plays any role? Think it might be fair to consider one of the four is the most pathetic collapse of a team . .  maybe ever .  . new offense . .  nobody is saying the guy is Tom Brady . . . but what gives with his detractors just overselling the hate? There's enough evidence of inconsistent performance to make the point, no need to oversell it with "virtually no improvement over four years"

preach.

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#47 : June 29, 2013, 09:47:17 PM

I don't think anyone can argue he hasn't  got a fair shake.    I am his biggest fan, but if he gets sent down the road, via trade or whatever after the season, no one can say the team has not treated him fairly.


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#48 : June 29, 2013, 10:01:22 PM

This will easily be the most talented team hes been on in his career. I dont think he is an elite qb or anything but with a good team around him like this he will have more opportunities for him to put points on the board. Plus another year in this system. The guy could really put up his best season as a buc so far. I think it's very possible that happens. If it does we might have to pay him more than he's worth but does anybody truly want to gamble letting him walk on the hope we could find something better? Of course only if what I'm saying happens but I do see that as a real possibility. 

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#49 : June 29, 2013, 10:17:02 PM

This will easily be the most talented team hes been on in his career. I dont think he is an elite qb or anything but with a good team around him like this he will have more opportunities for him to put points on the board. Plus another year in this system. The guy could really put up his best season as a buc so far. I think it's very possible that happens. If it does we might have to pay him more than he's worth but does anybody truly want to gamble letting him walk on the hope we could find something better? Of course only if what I'm saying happens but I do see that as a real possibility.




That scenario would make the decision easy.  Same, if he was really frekin bad.

Its the middle ground that is tough.   Say he doesn't show any improvement, maybe even regresses a bit.  But still puts up decent numbers. Then what?   Glad that is Dom's decision and not mine.  It would kill me to see him become one of the  top QB' in the league, in another uni.


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#50 : June 29, 2013, 10:36:33 PM

On Josh ever becoming a consistently dependable QB with real instincts.....I'm a fan of this team and I'll remain hopeful, but that's on him, not us.  I personally would have tried to extend him for 1 more year.  On the bad defensive performance argument.  Total BS.  That led to much more opportunity to ring up the high yardage and TD totals as the offense gets back on the field quickly and aggressively attacks down the field.  Historically, lots of good NFL QB's have led their teams to consistently good offensive production in spite of having a poor defensive squad.  If the criteria is the win-loss record, then it matters significantly.  If we're talking passing stats, I call serious BS w/ a small concession for a few extra picks.

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#51 : June 29, 2013, 10:49:15 PM

I guess I never really answered the question on "the odds".  Probably because that's the hardest part w/ Josh.  The uncertainty.  I'd put it at approx 55/45 in favor of a resigning.

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#52 : June 30, 2013, 12:30:28 AM


32, 30, 28, 25, 19  <---- Defensive ranking (by QBR) of the teams that Josh had his 100+ QBR games against in 2012.

Wonder if that is coincidence or correlation...

His worst two games, @NO(37.5)and@DAL(45.2) were against #28(NO) and #29(DAL), therefore ...no correlation, just coincidence.


Sorry, but that's not how it works.  Just because he can also suck against bad defenses doesn't mean he plays well against good ones.

Thats exactly how correlations do not work. Why you seem to think the opposite would be 'play good against good ones' remaines a mystery.

Wow.  You really don't get this whole logic thing , do you?  I guess that explains your bizarro world take on third downs.  Let's get the crayons and construction paper.

The premise of my quote is that Josh's good performances  come against poorer defenses.  Whether or not he also has poor games against them is utterly irrelevant to the premise.  If you want to refute the premise, you would need to show that he plays well against good defenses as well as bad ones.  Is that understandable? If it's not then you need some remedial work.

And if you go back:

2011
(I have to include 90+ because he only had one 100+)

103.5 vs NO  (rank 22)
91.3 vs CAR (rank 30)
96.6 vs GB   (rank 10)
95.9 vs NO   (rank 22)
94.7 vs IND (rank 31)
91.2 vs MIN (rank 32)

2010

102.4 vs CAR (rank 21) -----------4/43
121.8 vs ARI (rank 17)------------ 2/22
134.2 vs CAR (rank 21)------------5/19
117.9 vs SF  (rank 7) --------------5/22
109.8 vs WASH (rank 9)------------6/10
144.2 vs SEA (rank 8 ) -------------4/23
133.2 vs NO (rank 18) -------------4/11

So in three years he has put up a 100+ rating against just three teams in the top half of the league.  And all three of those were in 2010, and I don't think I need to get into the various reasons why that schedule was beyond historically easy.   And his stat lines in most of those games in 2010 are notable more for his completion percentage than anything else.  We could also the running attempts per game which I put up there, and which he no longer does because he say it hurts too much.  And even in 2011 the pattern of having his only decent games against poorer defenses continues.


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#53 : June 30, 2013, 02:33:53 AM

On Josh ever becoming a consistently dependable QB with real instincts.....I'm a fan of this team and I'll remain hopeful, but that's on him, not us. I personally would have tried to extend him for 1 more year.  On the bad defensive performance argument.  Total BS.  That led to much more opportunity to ring up the high yardage and TD totals as the offense gets back on the field quickly and aggressively attacks down the field.  Historically, lots of good NFL QB's have led their teams to consistently good offensive production in spite of having a poor defensive squad.  If the criteria is the win-loss record, then it matters significantly.  If we're talking passing stats, I call serious BS w/ a small concession for a few extra picks.



Why would he agree to that though ?    Players dream about hitting free agency.  That is where you get stupid money.   And the team could keep him one more year, if that was their desire, just tag him.


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#54 : June 30, 2013, 10:51:09 AM


The premise of my quote is that Josh's good performances  come against poorer defenses.  Whether or not he also has poor games against them is utterly irrelevant to the premise.  If you want to refute the premise, you would need to show that he plays well against good defenses as well as bad ones.  Is that understandable? If it's not then you need some remedial work.


Maybe you have to think about my premise, and not make assumtions about. He played poorly against bad defense aswell, therefore there is no correlation between bad defenses and good games of Freeman, if anything just a tendency into ONE direction.

If you want to tell me that QB tend to have high QBR games against teams that give up high QBR games, then this is already within the definition of AVERAGE QBR, this apply to every single QB(the average). Or do you want to tell me that defenses do not play poorly , QB on average just put up high QBR games against them? ....cause and effect, simple logic...correlations work BOTH ways.

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#55 : June 30, 2013, 11:15:24 AM

I don't think anyone can argue he hasn't  got a fair shake.    I am his biggest fan, but if he gets sent down the road, via trade or whatever after the season, no one can say the team has not treated him fairly.

Treated fairly and judged fairly are two different things.




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#56 : June 30, 2013, 12:50:19 PM


The premise of my quote is that Josh's good performances  come against poorer defenses.  Whether or not he also has poor games against them is utterly irrelevant to the premise.  If you want to refute the premise, you would need to show that he plays well against good defenses as well as bad ones.  Is that understandable? If it's not then you need some remedial work.


Maybe you have to think about my premise, and not make assumtions about. He played poorly against bad defense aswell, therefore there is no correlation between bad defenses and good games of Freeman, if anything just a tendency into ONE direction.

If you want to tell me that QB tend to have high QBR games against teams that give up high QBR games, then this is already within the definition of AVERAGE QBR, this apply to every single QB(the average). Or do you want to tell me that defenses do not play poorly , QB on average just put up high QBR games against them? ....cause and effect, simple logic...correlations work BOTH ways.
QaZ - The concept is simple and obvious for those willing to take an unbiased look at what was put forth as evidence.  What we have seen on the field is a trend that actually is seen in the stats.  Granted, as I often mention, stats can be misleading depending on how they are used.  The presentation supports what we already knew to be true, because it has already occurred and we have watched it.  Unfortunately, it is fact and actual history.  A large part of fans frustration comes from the inconsistencies and inability to deliver regularly against those higher rated defensive squads.  Isn't that similar to how we are all judged in our given professions.  Consistent effective performance / rise to a challenge - not shrink in the face of it / act professionally / strive for continual improvement / show leadership & try to elevate the performance of those around you.  For all those who've held professional positions - are those not expectations and qualities highly focused upon in during our interviewing and reviews?  It just doesn't play out in public for most of us or provide the same level of compensation.  While I don't think Josh has been in a good situation given prior coaching and constant changes, I don't feel he has been treated poorly.  Many other prospects would love to have been given such a long look in a starting role.

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#57 : June 30, 2013, 01:05:59 PM

On Josh ever becoming a consistently dependable QB with real instincts.....I'm a fan of this team and I'll remain hopeful, but that's on him, not us. I personally would have tried to extend him for 1 more year.  On the bad defensive performance argument.  Total BS.  That led to much more opportunity to ring up the high yardage and TD totals as the offense gets back on the field quickly and aggressively attacks down the field.  Historically, lots of good NFL QB's have led their teams to consistently good offensive production in spite of having a poor defensive squad.  If the criteria is the win-loss record, then it matters significantly.  If we're talking passing stats, I call serious BS w/ a small concession for a few extra picks.



Why would he agree to that though ?    Players dream about hitting free agency.  That is where you get stupid money.   And the team could keep him one more year, if that was their desire, just tag him.
Not sure he would have, but overpaying for a year and hopefully avoiding a franchise tag without future commitment looked desirable to me.  We'd get another year out of him, providing time to develop a replacement and time for all to see if he can further develop in critical areas.  He would still get a crack at UFA while young enough to cash in.

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#58 : June 30, 2013, 09:12:39 PM

QaZ - The concept is simple and obvious for those willing to take an unbiased look at what was put forth as evidence.  What we have seen on the field is a trend that actually is seen in the stats.  Granted, as I often mention, stats can be misleading depending on how they are used.  The presentation supports what we already knew to be true, because it has already occurred and we have watched it.  Unfortunately, it is fact and actual history.  A large part of fans frustration comes from the inconsistencies and inability to deliver regularly against those higher rated defensive squads.  Isn't that similar to how we are all judged in our given professions.  Consistent effective performance / rise to a challenge - not shrink in the face of it / act professionally / strive for continual improvement / show leadership & try to elevate the performance of those around you.  For all those who've held professional positions - are those not expectations and qualities highly focused upon in during our interviewing and reviews?  It just doesn't play out in public for most of us or provide the same level of compensation.  While I don't think Josh has been in a good situation given prior coaching and constant changes, I don't feel he has been treated poorly.  Many other prospects would love to have been given such a long look in a starting role.

No clue what you are trying to tell me.

I have no issue booing Freeman (treating him poorly), i dont care about Freeman at all.

But when guys want to let a valueable player leave us for nothing, because of some stupid reasons(f/e overall team success shown by win%), dreaming of us getting a replacement for him by 'just useing a 1st rounder in 2014', im not standing next to applauding them for gambling on our future, easily allowing us to get plagued by horrible QBs.

Bashing him for having his BEST games against bad defense is stupid, seeing an correllation between bad defenses and good games for Freeman is stupid. Actually, since everyone cries about his inconsitency, we should wonder why he also played poorly against bad defense.
I expect me QB to have his best games against bad defenses, Not having his BEST games against bad defenses, rather just having high QBRs against good defense, automatically makes his games against bad defenses worse. Against good defense, our own defense, should allow Freeman to win the game with a solid but not great QBR, but so far our defense never showed up.
But for some reason want to talk win% when evaluating Freeman. This cuts both ways by the way. I do not support is extending Freeman for a ton of money, just because Revis takes away #1 WRs, Banks plays like another all pro CB, Bower and Clayborn get 10+ sacks each, and Freeman once in awhile just throwing jump ball to Vjax and MW, while handing the ball over to a 2000y RB in Martin, and us haivng a realistic chance on getting a nice prospect like Bridgewater. We saw Freeman for FOUR years, he is what he is. But for some reason we still talk about what he is NOT, or what we think he might never be.

Funny how your bring up ' how we are all judged in our given professions'. But we do not cry about how we do not all have a Harvard diploma, how we are not all looking like G Clooney, we still have jobs and have girlfriends...because we make the most out of what we have. Stop dreaming.
We do not question our whole house, rip our sleeping room, just because of blocked drain. We do not invest our whole money in lottery tickets, risking to end up without anything to buy food with. etc

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#59 : July 01, 2013, 09:49:42 AM


"virtually no improvement over four years"     -- lol

Well... with all that evidence, I might have to re-evaluate things.   ::)

You think the actual 4 years plays any role? Think it might be fair to consider one of the four is the most pathetic collapse of a team . .  maybe ever .  . new offense . .  nobody is saying the guy is Tom Brady . . . but what gives with his detractors just overselling the hate? There's enough evidence of inconsistent performance to make the point, no need to oversell it with "virtually no improvement over four years"

Not overselling anything.  Simply stating a fact.  Also, by saying "virtually no improvement", it implies that there has been SOME improvement.  So, acknowledging that improvements have been made makes your statement of "hate" ignorant.
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