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wilkes

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#15 : July 04, 2013, 10:08:29 AM

I think that after this year everyone will know what he is unless he gets injured. From last year to this year there are not many variables in the equation.

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#16 : July 04, 2013, 10:09:04 AM

You are expounding on improved numbers, but that is really just rehashing what I said. He had better numbers as a result of better WRs. That fit his style nicely.

What about his poor mechanics?  His terrible mid range accuracy?  His inability to throw a shoulder feint, or freeze a safety?  Pocket climbing with more smoothness, and not throwing off his back foot when it is not needed?  What about his regression in scrambling?  His almost flat out refusal to run?

When he is bad, he is the worst if not on par with the worst, QB in the entire league.

And he has a losing record. QBs with bad defenses that are worth their weight can carry a team. Free cant. Because he isn't good enough. Can he improve?  Certainly. Hope he does.

But I think he is what he is.

So when he improves numberwise its just his weapons fooling our eyes?

When you want him to just improve his mechanis, mid range accuracy etc. then look there, and do not talk about him not improvement elsewhere.

They way you are argueing, when is great he is also the best QB in entire league, or did he not lead the league over a 4-5 games span last year?

How did D Brees or Eli  carry their team last year again? Oh i forgot, it was just Brees who had a new HC, a horrible defense ....a new offensive sheme and a team in turmoil after a 10 game losing streak, due to Raheem losing the locker room. Yeah, he is certainly excused for 7-9.

But, yes he is what he is. But why get lost in what he is NOT, lets make use of his abilities.

Boid Fink

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#17 : July 04, 2013, 10:18:05 AM

Not buying what you are selling. Period.

I watch the guy play. He can be gawd awful for long stretches. He is consistent at being inconsistent.

Flat out reality.


nitey

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#18 : July 04, 2013, 10:19:24 AM

You are expounding on improved numbers
True enough, but some numbers are indicative of improvement and the TD/INT ratio is one. In 2011 he was a -6 (16/22) and in 2012 it was +10 (27/17). That's a clear swing that indicates some pretty strong improvement. Also when you consider that Freeman threw basically 1/2 his INTs in two games meant that he was clearly working on ball security. The less turnovers that the offense has, the more likely they are to win the game, it would appear that Freeman is trying to hold to that statement.

What about his poor mechanics?  His terrible mid range accuracy?  His inability to throw a shoulder feint, or freeze a safety?  Pocket climbing with more smoothness, and not throwing off his back foot when it is not needed?  What about his regression in scrambling?  His almost flat out refusal to run?

Freeman admitted at the last PR event for the draft that he was encouraged NOT to run by the coaching staff, he also indicated that won't be the case this year. Also calling his mechanics poor is misleading, often he shows excellent mechanics, but his mechanics tend to break down under stress, he does need to improve in this area, but only Sully really knows how much he did or didn't so I'm not going to argue something that I have limited knowledge of. Finally, I think some of the bad mechanics were the result of being uncomfortable or confident in the play. Williams has already gone on record as saying that for much of last year there was a disconnect on plays between the quarterback and receiver. This seems to me to be something that will be more apparent this year than last.

And he has a losing record. QBs with bad defenses that are worth their weight can carry a team. Free cant. Because he isn't good enough. Can he improve?  Certainly. Hope he does.

Yes, he has a losing record. But your question was *what did he show as improvement*. The answer is a 3 game improvement from the prior year. If he is to show improvement this year, then last years W/L record is what we will compare it to.

When he is bad, he is the worst if not on par with the worst, QB in the entire league.

When ANY quarterback is bad, fans tend to say that he is the worse QB in the entire league and how can you argue? When a quartback is bad, logic indicates that he was probably among the players at the bottom of the league pretty much by definition. When he is good, can we not also say he's among the BEST players in the league? Clearly your point here is that he's erratic, a point that everyone seems to agree with.

But again your comment drifts off point, which was 'did Freeman improve' last season. I say he did, I believe that I have presented my points that indicate that he did improve. I'm not arguing that he's not inconsistent, nor that improvement is still needed - that's pretty evident, but I'm also not just trashing the guy for not being exactly what the fans so desperately want him to be, and elite, franchise quarterback.

 


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#19 : July 04, 2013, 10:28:45 AM

I watch the guy. I don't need misleading nonsense coming my way.

Freeman flat out sucks at times. And the inconsistency lends me to believe I am right.


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#20 : July 04, 2013, 10:29:42 AM

Not buying what you are selling. Period.

I watch the guy play. He can be gawd awful for long stretches. He is consistent at being inconsistent.

Flat out reality.

I'm tryin to sell? You are the one that claims Freeman showed no improvement and that this would mean anything regarding overall success for this team.

Funny how you now flip to Freeman being inconsistent, which no one doubted. It by the way this also shows how Freeman is able to improve, from gawd awful for a few games to pretty good for an even longer period.

Sorry but your views are far away from reality.

I watch the guy. I don't need misleading nonsense coming my way.

Freeman flat out sucks at times. And the inconsistency lends me to believe I am right.

He sucks at times, he is inconsitent. No reason to doubt yourself here, believe in what you see, you are absolutly right about those two points here.
: July 04, 2013, 10:34:55 AM QaZ

JC5100

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#21 : July 04, 2013, 11:24:20 AM

And he has a losing record. QBs with bad defenses that are worth their weight can carry a team. Free cant. Because he isn't good enough. Can he improve?  Certainly. Hope he does.

Like Drew Brees going 7-9 with the #32 defense or in 2008 when Rodgers numbers were almost the same as Freeman in 2012 but the Packers still only went 6-10 with the #5 scoring offense.

Yes 2011 Packers had #32 defense. They were also #1 in INTs by a huge margin.
: July 04, 2013, 11:27:55 AM JC5100

gbobucsfan

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#22 : July 04, 2013, 11:46:20 AM

What improvements exactly had Free made?



nice

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#23 : July 04, 2013, 11:59:32 AM

I watch the guy. I don't need misleading nonsense coming my way.

Freeman flat out sucks at times. And the inconsistency lends me to believe I am right.

You also give his receivers all the credit and none of the blame. You ignore all of the changes in system, coaching, and personnel. It appears that you make excuses for Fig Newton and Drew Brees posting identical 7-9 records, while piling on Freeman for all of the team's faults. Be fair. He didn't alone.

The fact remains: the offense set franchise records for points and yardage with Freeman at the helm. Logic would dictate a second year with these coaches and this system would produce even better numbers in every category including wins. It appears that you don't want that to happen. You attack Freeman like he's the enemy. In a bad year he's still the best the Bucs have ever had.

 I would love to know how Sully sees Freeman in direct comparison to Eli Manning. I know what my wife thinks (she's a Giants' fan). If Sully feels the same, he's happy to be in Tampa.

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#24 : July 04, 2013, 12:03:31 PM

As I was making my point about Freeman's improvement from 2011 to 2012, I was struck by the fact that there are a some similarities between Free's 2012 and 2010 numbers. That makes me wonder about the 2011 season and why his numbers were so off as this season is primarily the season that is held up as the reason for Freeman's rep as being inconsistent (and yes he *is* also inconsistent from game to game, but a lot of quarterbacks are - don't believe me, look at the game stats of Drew Brees last year, from week 12 to week 14 he had 4TD/9INTS/9Sacks).

Both years he had positive TD/INT ratios (25/6 in 2010, 27/17 in 2012) and in both years he had a YPA of 7.3. In 2010 we won 10 games, 2012, 7 games. 

So what was so different that caused the 2011 season? I believe that the strike that caused Freeman to lose his entire off season was the difference. I remember well that Freeman boasted that he had high amount of offensive players that came to his off season practices and I'm convinced that he picked up some very bad habits from listening to player coaches like Winslow. It's really a moot point, since all teams faced the same set of circumstances, but I wonder if Freeman had that off season to prepare with his coaching staff rather than learn from playing 'pick up' if he wouldn't be a more consistent quarterback today?

Anyway, for me, I'll take this as something to think about and digest to see if it causes me to see Freeman in less of an 'inconsistent' light. In the end, it's probably more of 'sh*t happens and you have to deal with it, doesn't make a bit of difference in how you got where you are, only what are you going to do now that you *are* there?' type of thing, but it also might mean that Freeman, with coaching is a better quarterback than he might appear. Again, this season is the test - we should know for sure in the not too distant future.

Just some food for thought.

Success is when Skill meets OpportunityFailure is when Fantasy meets Reality

QaZ

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#25 : July 04, 2013, 12:40:11 PM

I watch the guy. I don't need misleading nonsense coming my way.

Freeman flat out sucks at times. And the inconsistency lends me to believe I am right.

You also give his receivers all the credit and none of the blame. You ignore all of the changes in system, coaching, and personnel. It appears that you make excuses for Fig Newton and Drew Brees posting identical 7-9 records, while piling on Freeman for all of the team's faults. Be fair. He didn't alone.

...

We just see how our WRs dominate on jump balls for example. The fact MW gains ZERO separation from DB is totally ignored.(Remember 2011?) Vjax was anything but fast last year(->injury?). What kind of passes do you actually expect Freeman to throw at 'em? Still Vjax had his best season with Freeman as his QB. Sure SD had also TEs like Gates to take away balls from him, Rivers is no stud either etc... but then why blame Freeman for his weapons and their strengths so much? ...just seeing the strengths of our recieving corp but not their weakness (and lack of TE and 3rd WR at all), which BOTH dictate how to run this offense, playing to their strengths and working around our weaknesses.

But i guess i will get another empty phrase for...like Peyton throws his WRs open.

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#26 : July 04, 2013, 01:53:01 PM

What improvements exactly had Free made?

Boid you've really become a hater to not at least acknowledge that Freeman made some progress last season. Anyway here are the things I see as progress:
  • The team won 7 games over the 4 they won in 2011. It's fair to give Freeman some of the credit for the improvement.
  • He improved his TD/INT ration from 16/22 to 27/17 - a negative to a positive. Improvement.
  • His QBR improved from 74.6 to 81.6, an improvement.
  • He lost only 2 fumbles compared to 5 fumbles the year before.
  • Had 5 consecutive weeks where his QBR was over 100.

Is this an amazing list? Not really, but the fact that he reversed his TD/INT ratio from negative to positive is pretty huge IMO, coupled with the fumbles, Free had 8 less turnovers from 2011 and had the coaching staff been on the ball and eliminated that second 4 INT game like they should have, the numbers should have been better. He could have been better, the coaches should have been better - but improvement WAS there.

You can be blind to it and discount it - that's up to you.




Now if he can just improve that much again in 2013, we will be set.


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#27 : July 04, 2013, 03:04:50 PM

Both Faine snd Ruud were class acts off the field and yeah I get why people might have wanted them replaced but the level many here took it and making it personal made me ashamed to be part of this fan base. 


BucDaFackUp

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#28 : July 04, 2013, 09:34:06 PM

Both Faine snd Ruud were class acts off the field and yeah I get why people might have wanted them replaced but the level many here took it and making it personal made me ashamed to be part of this fan base.

That's a cool pic of Freeman in your sig....LMAO

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#29 : July 05, 2013, 09:06:16 AM

What improvements exactly had Free made?

2009. 10:18 TD/INT ratio,  6.40 yards per attempt, QB rating of 59.8
2012:  27:17 TD/INT ratio, 7.29 yards per attempt, QB rating of 81.6


I'm not sure why people think he hasn't improved. He's improved very much. He had a very bad year in 2012 like the entire team did. I think that is why. If you take that year away, for the sake of the conversation, he has gotten better every year.

What I think you mean boid is that Freeman is still Freeman. He hasn't turned into Aaron Rogers over night. He is still good at what he does, deep balls and long throws that require a lot of arm strength. He still is inconsistent, however his periods between his inconsistency are much much better. So he has improved without a doubt. If you want to say he hasn't improved on his own biggest weaknesses, I'd have to agree but don't pretend like the rookie we had in 2009 is the same guy we had last year.

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