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VinBucFan

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#30 : July 12, 2013, 12:52:20 PM

Number of sacks is not really indicative of the quality of an offensive line.

 ???

well, you will not read that every day

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#31 : July 12, 2013, 12:54:35 PM

Number of sacks is not really indicative of the quality of an offensive line.

 ???

well, you will not read that every day
So please explain why the best offensive line in the NFL gave up the 9th most sacks.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#32 : July 12, 2013, 01:00:15 PM

After listening to the interview, I think we better start getting used to the idea of the Mike Glennon as our starter in 2014. I think Cosell made some great points that support the idea of the Bucs letting Freeman walk in 2014 unless he truly distinguishes himself as an elite QB in 2013. Mark Dominik's recent strategy is becoming more & more clear to me each day -- pay for the best and replace the rest.  It's likely the same reason recent extension talks between Mike Willams and the Bucs have fallen apart.


GoldsonAges

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#33 : July 12, 2013, 01:03:34 PM

http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Mike+Glennon+North+Carolina+State+v+Tennessee+rSiLsQT6icvl.jpg

Get used to seeing this after you run Freeman off.

Nobodys running Freeman off. If anybody is going to do that its himself. He wont have played well enough for the team to want to keep him around. If he decides he is worth more than the contract he is offered he will walk and most likely have to go and learn an entirely new system again. Sounds like fun but at least he would get paid.

He has already played well enough to prove that he is a much better option than any other QB we have any chance of getting by the start of training camp in 2014. Yet he is not under contract past this year.

And by waiting they bring in the possibility that Freeman will either sign somewhere else or demand huge money. Seems like a pretty poorly thought out plan to me.

Mike Glennon
6\' 7\" 220 pounds.
6\' 6\" 210
6\' 5\" 200
6\' 4\" 190 6\' 3\" 180 6\' 2\" 170 6\' 1\" 160  6\' 0\" 150 How does he compare to your favorite QB?

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#34 : July 12, 2013, 01:04:43 PM

Still, in what was considered the weakest QB class in quite a long time, the 5th best QB doesn't seem like good value in the 3rd round.

Wow, what an horrible argument, since when is the 3rd or 7th best QB of a weak QB class worse(or better)  than the 3rd or 7th of a strong class?

I mean the strength of a class is about the AVERAGE of or maybe about its PEAKS. We did not draft the whole QB class of 2013, we drafted ONE single guy. How good the 3rd or whatever QB is available to us next year is hardly determined by how Bridgewater and Johnny Football making it a strong class or not, as Geno and Emanual do not make or break Glennons career.

2013 lacked 1st or even maybe even 2nd round talent, but this has almost zero effect on Glennon being or not being worth a 3rd rounder and his chances to shine one day.

Seriously which 3rd best year do you want, Staffords, A Smiths or Freemans? None is not allowed as an answer here, although it should be, lol
Or how about the guys after Marino, Kelly, Elway?

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#35 : July 12, 2013, 01:05:31 PM

NFP - 7th
CBS - 6th
Draft Nasty - 4th
Draft Countdown - 5th
Walter's - 5th
Mayock - 4th
Kiper - 4th
NFL Draft Scout - 5th
ESPN - 5th


I guess the final rankings had him closer to 5th than 7th. Still, in what was considered the weakest QB class in quite a long time, the 5th best QB doesn't seem like good value in the 3rd round. Time will tell.
Eh, this isn't really the place to argue whether Glennon was the 5th best or 7th best QB or whether or not he was good value. The point was comparing him to Matt Ryan, whom the entire NFL and draft community decided was either the #1 QB or at worst #2. Somehow everyone but Cosell looked at the two of them and saw very different players.

As I recall the QB class when Ryan came out didn't really pan out too well either.  Flacco was the only other good qb I can think of and he was drafted many picks after Ryan.  Remember, alot of the reason Ryan went early was because the Falcons were picking early and had just dealt with the Vick deal and were looking for a totally vanilla guy who had great character and wouldn't give them grief.  Who knows what Glennon turns out to be but its difficult to compare different pre draft rankings from different years as to a measure of their talent.  Too many variables from draft to draft.

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#36 : July 12, 2013, 01:06:11 PM

Number of sacks is not really indicative of the quality of an offensive line.

 ???

well, you will not read that every day
So please explain why the best offensive line in the NFL gave up the 9th most sacks.

because "number of sacks" is INDICATIVE of the quality of an offensive line (obviously), although not ABSOLUTELY so.  This is what you do with stats all the time.  You used a single stat as an absolute to dismiss a point (that, frankly, shouldn't have even been controversial).


Its like "the running game has no impact on passing game" which I have seen you and a few others argue using stats.  Makes no sense when considered in the real world

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Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\'s Cancer Center

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#37 : July 12, 2013, 01:07:53 PM

Number of sacks is not really indicative of the quality of an offensive line.

 ???

well, you will not read that every day
So please explain why the best offensive line in the NFL gave up the 9th most sacks.

The two ways QB'S avoid sacks the most are getting the ball out quickly or being 6' 5" 250 pounds. IMO of course.

Mike Glennon
6\' 7\" 220 pounds.
6\' 6\" 210
6\' 5\" 200
6\' 4\" 190 6\' 3\" 180 6\' 2\" 170 6\' 1\" 160  6\' 0\" 150 How does he compare to your favorite QB?

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#38 : July 12, 2013, 01:11:11 PM

Number of sacks is not really indicative of the quality of an offensive line.

 ???

well, you will not read that every day
So please explain why the best offensive line in the NFL gave up the 9th most sacks.

The two ways QB'S avoid sacks the most are getting the ball out quickly or being 6' 5" 250 pounds. IMO of course.
You don't say.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#39 : July 12, 2013, 01:14:21 PM

NFP - 7th
CBS - 6th
Draft Nasty - 4th
Draft Countdown - 5th
Walter's - 5th
Mayock - 4th
Kiper - 4th
NFL Draft Scout - 5th
ESPN - 5th


I guess the final rankings had him closer to 5th than 7th. Still, in what was considered the weakest QB class in quite a long time, the 5th best QB doesn't seem like good value in the 3rd round. Time will tell.
Eh, this isn't really the place to argue whether Glennon was the 5th best or 7th best QB or whether or not he was good value. The point was comparing him to Matt Ryan, whom the entire NFL and draft community decided was either the #1 QB or at worst #2. Somehow everyone but Cosell looked at the two of them and saw very different players.

As I recall the QB class when Ryan came out didn't really pan out too well either.  Flacco was the only other good qb I can think of and he was drafted many picks after Ryan.  Remember, alot of the reason Ryan went early was because the Falcons were picking early and had just dealt with the Vick deal and were looking for a totally vanilla guy who had great character and wouldn't give them grief.  Who knows what Glennon turns out to be but its difficult to compare different pre draft rankings from different years as to a measure of their talent.  Too many variables from draft to draft.
No it's not difficult to compare pre-draft QB rankings. The bottom line is QB is the most important position in football. If teams think a player can be a franchise QB, they're drafting him in the 1st round, or at worst the top of the 2nd round, regardless of what other QB's are available in the middle rounds. Everyone thought Ryan and Flacco should go in the 1st round. No one thought Glennon should.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#40 : July 12, 2013, 01:18:52 PM

Number of sacks is not really indicative of the quality of an offensive line.

 ???

well, you will not read that every day
So please explain why the best offensive line in the NFL gave up the 9th most sacks.

because "number of sacks" is INDICATIVE of the quality of an offensive line (obviously), although not ABSOLUTELY so.  This is what you do with stats all the time.  You used a single stat as an absolute to dismiss a point (that, frankly, shouldn't have even been controversial).


Its like "the running game has no impact on passing game" which I have seen you and a few others argue using stats.  Makes no sense when considered in the real world
So stats only mean something when they match up with your opinion. Gotcha.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

BucBalla85

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#41 : July 12, 2013, 01:28:33 PM

http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Mike+Glennon+North+Carolina+State+v+Tennessee+rSiLsQT6icvl.jpg

Get used to seeing this after you run Freeman off.

Nobodys running Freeman off. If anybody is going to do that its himself. He wont have played well enough for the team to want to keep him around. If he decides he is worth more than the contract he is offered he will walk and most likely have to go and learn an entirely new system again. Sounds like fun but at least he would get paid.

He has already played well enough to prove that he is a much better option than any other QB we have any chance of getting by the start of training camp in 2014. Yet he is not under contract past this year.

And by waiting they bring in the possibility that Freeman will either sign somewhere else or demand huge money. Seems like a pretty poorly thought out plan to me.

Well I agree that there is nobody better at the moment on this roster and there is no better replacements available at the moment. I disagree that the he has done enough to prove that he deserves an extension. I think its a fishy situation. Kind of like Flaccos. Its also no good that you have QBs like Romo getting the big contracts he got because hes not a great QB and didnt deserve that kind of contract. Freeman is in the best situation he has been in since hes been here. He has weapons and is in the second year of this offense. The defense should be better on paper. Which will give him the ball back more often than he did last year or really any year hes been here for that matter. More opportunities to put points on the board.

The problem will arise that if he does that and all works out, the team will likely be in the playoffs and the question arises that is he worth the Romo to Flacco contract because of the numbers he put up. The answer will be debatable. Because you will have people say he did what he was supposed to do with a solid team around him. You have to keep him and sign him. I wont disagree with that and then you will have people say well he should have been able to do that without the help of his team. I wouldnt disagree with that either because to be paid like an Elite QB you have to play like one and show that your capable of doing that CONSISTENTLY. I dont think Romo or Flacco deserve the contracts they got and are more of a product of a solid team around them but this is the NFL and you have to have a solid QB to compete.

These guys arent growing on trees. Its easy for fans to say get rid of him and draft a guy next year. Or go with the backup. But reality isnt as sweet as that. Its a really dificult situation the Bucs are in. Its not the Bucs fault and its not necessarily Joshs fault. Its just the way things have worked out and hopefully the Bucs and Freeman have a successful year and are able to come to an agreement that works for Freeman and the Bucs. I think the contracts of Romo and Flacco hurt the team overall. We need a good solid deal that is fair for both sides and will keep the team able to go out and sign guys on their own roster and FAs. Its tough to do in this league.

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#42 : July 12, 2013, 01:36:56 PM

NFP - 7th
CBS - 6th
Draft Nasty - 4th
Draft Countdown - 5th
Walter's - 5th
Mayock - 4th
Kiper - 4th
NFL Draft Scout - 5th
ESPN - 5th


I guess the final rankings had him closer to 5th than 7th. Still, in what was considered the weakest QB class in quite a long time, the 5th best QB doesn't seem like good value in the 3rd round. Time will tell.
Eh, this isn't really the place to argue whether Glennon was the 5th best or 7th best QB or whether or not he was good value. The point was comparing him to Matt Ryan, whom the entire NFL and draft community decided was either the #1 QB or at worst #2. Somehow everyone but Cosell looked at the two of them and saw very different players.

As I recall the QB class when Ryan came out didn't really pan out too well either.  Flacco was the only other good qb I can think of and he was drafted many picks after Ryan.  Remember, alot of the reason Ryan went early was because the Falcons were picking early and had just dealt with the Vick deal and were looking for a totally vanilla guy who had great character and wouldn't give them grief.  Who knows what Glennon turns out to be but its difficult to compare different pre draft rankings from different years as to a measure of their talent.  Too many variables from draft to draft.
No it's not difficult to compare pre-draft QB rankings. The bottom line is QB is the most important position in football. If teams think a player can be a franchise QB, they're drafting him in the 1st round, or at worst the top of the 2nd round, regardless of what other QB's are available in the middle rounds. Everyone thought Ryan and Flacco should go in the 1st round. No one thought Glennon should.

By that rationale then, do the Colts, if they get an early pick next year, take a franchise qb because there is a can't miss prospect available?  Is E.J. Manual a franchise qb?  No doubt that qb is the most important position on the field, but it isn't the only position.  If teams feel they have a need and the available player is there, most often they try to make it fit.  It only takes one team to think they are a franchise qb and take them early.  Tebow went in the first round too.  And it is difficult to compare pre-draft rankings from different years as some classes have a lot of talent and some don't. Different en vogue offenses will have a bearing on the types of qb rated higher as well.  As I recall, most didn't have it as Ryan and Flacco can't miss prospects.  Flacco wasn't even the second or third best in the pre draft rankings and yet is the only one to win the Super Bowl thus far out of that group.  Point is, you won't know what you have for a few years down the road for the most part regardless of pre draft grades. 

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#43 : July 12, 2013, 01:43:01 PM

No it's not difficult to compare pre-draft QB rankings. The bottom line is QB is the most important position in football. If teams think a player can be a franchise QB, they're drafting him in the 1st round, or at worst the top of the 2nd round, regardless of what other QB's are available in the middle rounds. Everyone thought Ryan and Flacco should go in the 1st round. No one thought Glennon should.

Since most of the time the teams fail at getting a francise QB this way, i have my doubts whether this should be the only way for. Furthermore i wonder why there are QB taken after the top40 at all.
The higher success rate of top40 picks does not force teams to draft QB so high, nor does it tell us anything about how teams think about guys taken outside of your prestigious top40.

After the draft all players are the same anyway, or does it make any sense to trade for former top40 QBs? Still we might want to give Glennon a few snaps first, before comparing him to anyone.

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#44 : July 12, 2013, 01:47:58 PM

Number of sacks is not really indicative of the quality of an offensive line.

 ???

well, you will not read that every day
So please explain why the best offensive line in the NFL gave up the 9th most sacks.

because "number of sacks" is INDICATIVE of the quality of an offensive line (obviously), although not ABSOLUTELY so.  This is what you do with stats all the time.  You used a single stat as an absolute to dismiss a point (that, frankly, shouldn't have even been controversial).


Its like "the running game has no impact on passing game" which I have seen you and a few others argue using stats.  Makes no sense when considered in the real world
So stats only mean something when they match up with your opinion. Gotcha.

This ^^^^ is why so many discussions on here are meaningless.  FRG, you did what you are prone to do, which is to use a stat to OVERSTATE a position.  Rather than just acknowledging that and moving on, this ^^^^ type of game playing begins. You overstated something by turning a single stat into an absolute, and yet now its about me . . .  lol

Earlier in this thread, you and Grimm commented that "many" sacks are avoided by a QB getting rid of the ball earlier and escaping. My guess is you chose the word "many" because you wanted to leave out that sacks are also avoided by good offensive line play (a point so obvious it should even be controversial, but that brings us back to you and stats and OVERSTATING)

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Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\'s Cancer Center
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