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dalbuc

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: May 17, 2007, 09:56:58 AM

http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=9302

An interesting take on the whole middle east east:

"The operational mistake that middle east experts keep making is the failure to recognise that backward societies must be left alone, as the French now wisely leave Corsica to its own devices, as the Italians quietly learned to do in Sicily, once they recognised that maxi-trials merely handed over control to a newer and smarter mafia of doctors and lawyers. With neither invasions nor friendly engagements, the peoples of the middle east should finally be allowed to have their own history—the one thing that middle east experts of all stripes seem determined to deny them."

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

DBrooksIsMyDaddy

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#1 : May 17, 2007, 12:32:56 PM

In order for this to work, the rest of the world has to stop buying oil from these backward societies.  We need to build refineries now, drill in alaska and the gulf, all the while decreasing our need for overseas oil.  At the same time, alternate energy sources need to be encouraged and used in larger and larger numbers.  THese tesla cars, retrofitting others for alternate fuels, solar power, wind  power, need to take over for our dependence on foreign oil. 

And I truly think this is one of the top threats our country has--to have so much of its power in others' hands.

Morgan

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#2 : May 17, 2007, 01:45:47 PM

I suppose that we could ignore the Middle East - as long as its people would stop flying jetliners into our skyscrapers.

Groovatron

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#3 : May 17, 2007, 01:51:20 PM

I agree wholeheartedly with the last paragraph:

"Unless compelled by immediate danger, we should therefore focus on the old and new lands of creation in Europe and America, in India and east Asia—places where hard-working populations are looking ahead instead of dreaming of the past."

dalbuc

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#4 : May 17, 2007, 02:21:08 PM

I suppose that we could ignore the Middle East - as long as its people would stop flying jetliners into our skyscrapers.

The point of the author is that paying attention to it hasn't stopped this. I don't agree with the take but it is an interesting way to look at the issue.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

JavaBuc

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#5 : May 17, 2007, 02:34:09 PM

The only way we could have ignored the middle east would have been if we didn't support Israel to the hilt.   That was the key to all of these problems.   Had we not supported Israel, we'd have not been attacked on 9/11.    It's too late to ignore the middle east now.    It's just too late...

Ladyfan

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#6 : May 17, 2007, 11:27:15 PM

It's never too late to change tactics. In fact, it's dangerous not to.  Make a mistake once even for four=five years, doesn't mean do it forever even if it doesn't work.  The only person we owe revenge to is Osama/  Just spend time and energy on him and then come home and build this country up again.  Too much money, time and badly placed energy has goneinto the Middle East.  Like China, never go to a land war in the Middle East.  It's a military proverb.

I've said for a long time we should let them feud amongst themselves as they have for centuries.  With the exception of Iran which is Indo-European heritage, the arabs and jews are all semites...brothers and cousins....etc.   To me it's just one big tribal family feud that goes on and on.
The eye for an eye vendettas that last for millenia.  Put a fence around the whole real estate and let them kill each other off in the name of whomever...


dalbuc

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#7 : May 18, 2007, 10:45:00 AM

The only way we could have ignored the middle east would have been if we didn't support Israel to the hilt.   That was the key to all of these problems.   Had we not supported Israel, we'd have not been attacked on 9/11.    It's too late to ignore the middle east now.    It's just too late...

Isreal had nada to do with 9/11. The crazy jihadists types really don't care about Israel. Is Israel wasn't there they'd still hate us they blame Israel because they hate them as well but what they really hate are civilized, successful, not-stuck-in-the-middle-ages societies and until that changes they're gonna hate us.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

alstott40

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#8 : May 18, 2007, 01:34:35 PM

I dont know but we better have a nuc to answer back with.  Or have that darn ray gun developed enough to melt those iranian suckers


Ladyfan

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#9 : May 20, 2007, 12:58:02 PM

Today's paper has an article that the crazy like a fox Al Sadr has changed his tactics.  He's killing off all the extremists in his group, aligning himself with middle of the road SUNNI and KURDS.  He says lets just fight the invaders not each other....

I don't like him, but he knows how to shift focus when it's to his advantage....we are too heavy layered beaurocrasy  (SP?) to move that quickly.  That's the difference between and entrepreneur and IBM.  We should just up and change.....Let's say we ignore Iraqi Parliment and deal directly with al Sadr and stage new elections for a guy who can control a lot of guns and hearts.  Why not.  I agree that is smacks of realpolitik but only a space cadet thinks anything more is possible now. Let's be cynical,lmake a deal and leave.....mostly. al Sadr can probably spend our reconstruction money as well as anyone else....


JavaBuc

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#10 : May 20, 2007, 02:02:20 PM

The only way we could have ignored the middle east would have been if we didn't support Israel to the hilt. That was the key to all of these problems. Had we not supported Israel, we'd have not been attacked on 9/11. It's too late to ignore the middle east now. It's just too late...

Isreal had nada to do with 9/11. The crazy jihadists types really don't care about Israel. Is Israel wasn't there they'd still hate us they blame Israel because they hate them as well but what they really hate are civilized, successful, not-stuck-in-the-middle-ages societies and until that changes they're gonna hate us.

That is far from true.   The hatred for Israel is how they were able to recruit all the jihadists in the first place.   The only reason they started going after the usa was because of our support of Israel in the middle east.   They realized they couldnt take down Israel due to our support.   So they decided the way to go was to take us down.   I've spent enough time in the middle east to know that there is no way they could have recruited people to attack the usa prior to 9/11 without us supporting Israel.   

dalbuc

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#11 : May 21, 2007, 09:20:51 AM

hat is far from true.   The hatred for Israel is how they were able to recruit all the jihadists in the first place.   The only reason they started going after the usa was because of our support of Israel in the middle east.   They realized they couldnt take down Israel due to our support.   So they decided the way to go was to take us down.   I've spent enough time in the middle east to know that there is no way they could have recruited people to attack the usa prior to 9/11 without us supporting Israel.   

There's no doubt the Muslim world hates Israel and that makes a really handy tag to work with but even without Isreal we'd have the same issues. What the Islamic nutjob hates isn't our foreign policy alone (although they hate it) but our way of life. Everything about the West in terms of economic success, political freedom and sexual liberation cheeses these wackos off - see Bernard Lewis "What Went Wrong" or "Terror and Liberalism" by Paul Berman on both of these topics. Remove the Israel rally flag and they'll just find another really flag.

Analogy the Xian right hates the secular left in this country. They hate their stand on abortion and that is sort of their rally flag. Remove that issue and the Xian right still hates the secular left and they'd find another issue to rally around. It is rare that any group has a singular point of hate.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

alldaway

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#12 : May 21, 2007, 03:14:50 PM

I say ignore that part of the world.  Democracy has been at their doorstep for thousands of years and they never have really embraced it (It failed once in Iraq and who knows how it will end up this time?).  They have forgotten all the good things that Cyrus the Great brought about in this world and is the foundation of many parts of our society in the west.  And yet they ignore the wisdom of Cyrus the great? They have lost their will to seek knowledge and technology like they did in the past.  They want to stay in the dark ages?  Fine so be it.

They even have forsaken the teachings of the Great Prophet in my opinion.  His first wife was a widow who as older than him when he marrid her.  She was wealthy and was a business woman too.  Yet we see a stark contrast how they treat women in the middle east.  That is what is most disturbing to me.

If they want to revert back to the dark ages so be it.  At least the rest of the world (Africa, S. America, Asia) is trying to improve their way of life.  Yes there are conflicts all over the world but in the end they are all trying to improve.  The middle east is stagnating and living in the past. 

Ladyfan

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#13 : May 21, 2007, 03:28:09 PM

stagnating while trying to regain a fleeting former glory from the middle ages, for heaven's sake ( and a few virgins). living in the past comes about because no one believes the future holds any promise.  it's really their stagnating mind set.  I haven't read the Koran.  But I've read the bible too many  times and the torah which is almost just like the bible especially the old testament...I've read buddha's thoughts written by his followers, a number of Zen texts and Lao Tsu and the Hindu mythologies with Krishna and Arjuna....in none of these texts does it say anything about killing the infidels!  or justify in any way the barbarian tactics taken with glee by terrorists.  So I'm really not drawn to learn more about Islam, but I am trying to force myself to.  Maybe this summer I'll get it done.

I'm very grateful to have been born an American Woman in  the 20th century.  I cannot think of a better culture historically and actually  to be part of as a female. 


JavaBuc

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#14 : May 21, 2007, 07:54:20 PM

I'm very grateful to have been born an American Woman in the 20th century. I cannot think of a better culture historically and actually to be part of as a female.

No kidding.    There are better societies/cultures in the world today for men.   But the usa is the best in the world for women - by Far.
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