Welcome, Guest
Pewter Report  >>  Boards  >>  The Red Board (Moderators: 3rd String Kicker, PRPatrol)  >>  Topic: In Defense Of Gruden (yet again) « previous next »
Page: 1 2 3 4 5

cheveliar

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 19366
Offline
#45 : November 01, 2006, 09:24:32 AM


I have to disagree. It's always about the execution. We don't have the mindset yet that will allow us to perform at that level. That is on the players. False starts, motion, tripping and whatever else cause these drive killing penalties to come about is not a bad scheme it's bad execution...Tripping I have to almost excuse because if as a lineman you get beat you better trip somebody, we ain't got but one QB...




Again, I think you have to distinguish between Jon the Offensive Coordinator and Jon the Head Coach. As Offensive Coordinator, Jon needs to call the right plays to put the team in a position to be successful. As Head Coach, Jon needs to have the team prepared and motivated to execute those plays. Poor execution can be blamed on the players at first, but eventually you have to blame coaching because they are not putting the right product on the field.

Well said bradentonian. I could have not said it any better. But I will give Gruden some leeway with the younger players on offense. But the veterans on offense should be the ones leading the way. That is why so many people are down on Galloway and his lackluster performance against the Giants.

Too that point, who's making the miscues?  Offensive linemen, all young and inexperienced.  9 times out of 10 our drive killers are holding and false starts.  Last week Galloway dropped a few passes.  Uncharacteristic of him as he rarely lines up wrong, leaves early, or has a game changing infraction.  Not saying he's perfect as the pick play in the Saints game was just ugly.  Or our guys are just getting caved in with Raggedy Ann and Wade just not holding up at the point of attack...That's 90% concentration which you can not coach.  You are a player have to have that mindset in you to know when to fire off the ball.  Sure there are other factors such as crowd noise but you learn to deal with those obstacles over time.  You'd like to think that coming from big time programs you don't have that issue, but we do...

Without Carl Nix it feels like our running game just took a death blow to the face!


GrudenFan63

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 4762
Offline
#46 : November 01, 2006, 09:36:11 AM

It's always about the execution. 

If it's always about the execution, Chev, no coach would ever be fired. If only those players would have made those plays, those coaches wouldn't have had to part ways with their respected teams. It's the perfect world. Every coach retires; no coach gets fired. Heck, if only the Bucs would have caught enough balls or run for enough yards to win ballgames back then; if only they would have executed,  we'd only have one coach since McKay retired. If only the boys could execute; every coach would have his job for a lifetime. However, it doesn't exactly work that way. I see what you're saying, but I don't agree with it all.  ;)

_________________________________________________________
How the heck did I get old enough to have a kid in college?

cheveliar

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 19366
Offline
#47 : November 01, 2006, 09:42:06 AM

It's always about the execution.

If it's always about the execution, Chev, no coach would ever be fired. If only those players would have made those plays, those coaches wouldn't have had to part ways with their respected teams. It's the perfect world. Every coach retires; no coach gets fired. Heck, if only the Bucs would have caught enough balls or run for enough yards to win ballgames back then; if only they would have executed, John McKay would have coached in Tampa Bay until his dying day. If only the boys could execute; every coach would have his job for a lifetime. However, it doesn't exactly work that way. I see what you're saying, but I don't agree with it all. ;)

I see what you are saying eventually the coach takes the sword.  That's reality, but it doesn't make it his fault...I'm sure we are all at times responsible for things we really can't control the right way or prompt to perform to it's optimal level for whatever reason, which can be many and varied.  Doesn't make you at fault but you are still held accountable. 

Without Carl Nix it feels like our running game just took a death blow to the face!


GrudenFan63

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 4762
Offline
#48 : November 01, 2006, 10:02:26 AM

It's always about the execution.

If it's always about the execution, Chev, no coach would ever be fired. If only those players would have made those plays, those coaches wouldn't have had to part ways with their respected teams. It's the perfect world. Every coach retires; no coach gets fired. Heck, if only the Bucs would have caught enough balls or run for enough yards to win ballgames back then; if only they would have executed, John McKay would have coached in Tampa Bay until his dying day. If only the boys could execute; every coach would have his job for a lifetime. However, it doesn't exactly work that way. I see what you're saying, but I don't agree with it all. ;)

I see what you are saying eventually the coach takes the sword.  That's reality, but it doesn't make it his fault...I'm sure we are all at times responsible for things we really can't control the right way or prompt to perform to it's optimal level for whatever reason, which can be many and varied.  Doesn't make you at fault but you are still held accountable. 

I don't think Gruden is at fault for those boys not being able to execute, but I think he does have fault in the matter. The fact is; when your company is struggling, everyone has a responsibility to fix the problem. Like you said, everyone is accountable. The issue with Gruden is that he has his fingerprints on every area of this team. He doesn't just have a responsibility or an accountability, he has a duty to make sure this team is prepared and ready for action for at least sixteen games every fall and winter. If I allow my kid to walk away with a stranger, I'm generally responsible for whatever happens because I allowed my kid to walk away with a stranger. When Gruden allows a player to take the field, he's generally responsible for whatever happens because he allowed that player to take the field. It works the same way with any other coach in this league.

_________________________________________________________
How the heck did I get old enough to have a kid in college?

cheveliar

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 19366
Offline
#49 : November 01, 2006, 10:03:16 AM

Or our guys are just getting caved in with Raggedy Ann and Wade just not holding up at the point of attack...That's 90% concentration which you can not coach.

Ahh more defense of the OL. Reality check Chev when Tampa runs to:

Left End (outside LOT): 30th (Davis)
Left Tackle (LOT/LOG gap): 30th (Beunning/Mahan)
Mid/Guard (C/OG gaps, both): 24th (Buenning/Mahan/Wade/Joseph)
Right Tackle (ROG/ROT gap): 27th (Joseph/Mahan/Trueblood)
Right End (outside ROT): 12th (Trueblood)

It ain't Mahan killing us because that Right Tackle measure was top 10 when he was at ROG - now I disclaim all the right run stats since we run < 10% of all our plays to the right side so any single good or bad run can distort the results badly but in the limited sample with Mahan at ROG he was top 10 and Davin is not.

You know I always bow to the statmaster, but I'm watching Ragedy getting crushed and beat down and just not even blocking people at times choosing to help the Center vs blocking the guy head up on him.  It's one thing to point out stats, but I'm watching this guy get beat every week and am puzzled at why he's still in there other than Dan is hurt and they just don't have the faith in Jeb.  Heck someone mention C. Green take some snaps at LG.  I'm not a proponent of moving guys around, but I'd at least like to see what happens...

Without Carl Nix it feels like our running game just took a death blow to the face!


cheveliar

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 19366
Offline
#50 : November 01, 2006, 10:05:44 AM

It's always about the execution.

If it's always about the execution, Chev, no coach would ever be fired. If only those players would have made those plays, those coaches wouldn't have had to part ways with their respected teams. It's the perfect world. Every coach retires; no coach gets fired. Heck, if only the Bucs would have caught enough balls or run for enough yards to win ballgames back then; if only they would have executed, John McKay would have coached in Tampa Bay until his dying day. If only the boys could execute; every coach would have his job for a lifetime. However, it doesn't exactly work that way. I see what you're saying, but I don't agree with it all. ;)

I see what you are saying eventually the coach takes the sword.  That's reality, but it doesn't make it his fault...I'm sure we are all at times responsible for things we really can't control the right way or prompt to perform to it's optimal level for whatever reason, which can be many and varied.  Doesn't make you at fault but you are still held accountable.

I don't think Gruden is at fault for those boys not being able to execute, but I think he does have fault in the matter. The fact is; when your company is struggling, everyone has a responsibility to fix the problem. Like you said, everyone is accountable. The issue with Gruden is that he has his fingerprints on every area of this team. He doesn't just have a responsibility or an accountability, he has a duty to make sure this team is prepared and ready for action for at least sixteen games every fall and winter. If I allow my kid to walk away with a stranger, I'm generally responsible for whatever happens because I allowed my kid to walk away with a stranger. When Gruden allows a player to take the field, he's generally responsible for whatever happens because he allowed that player to take the field. It works the same way with any other coach in this league.

I think we're both walking the fine line and chosing our sides.  Not a bad thing, but not sure if we'l agree here totally...

Without Carl Nix it feels like our running game just took a death blow to the face!


ABuccs Fan

*
Practice Squad

Posts : 0
Offline
#51 : November 01, 2006, 10:13:51 AM

Galloway has a had more than I think acceptable deep pass drops over the last 2 seasons. He dropped 2 deep TD passes against the Saints, 1 deep TD pass against the Panthers, and 1 deep TD pass against the Falcons. He might just be afraid of getting hit by the Safety. Those four passes last season hit him in the hands. 2 of them his arms were bent at the elbow. I don't remember enough about Joey from his Seahawk days to know whether this is characteristic or uncharacteristic of him. But over the last season and a half, it's been very characteristic.

GrudenFan63

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 4762
Offline
#52 : November 01, 2006, 10:18:20 AM

I actually agree with many of your statements. I just don't think a title makes a coach exempt from criticism, questioning, or an eventual firing/parting of ways; which is where I differ from many people. I support Gruden, and I think he can right the ship in Tampa Bay. The question is of time, and I don't think he should be given all the time in the world to right that ship if someone else can right it quicker. The question then becomes; "which person can right it quicker?" That, I don't know. There are coaches out there who don't fit well into certain systems anymore, but their philosophies can boom another system up. Although there is no way to know this; I think it's interesting. If a seer told someone that the Bucs will win a Superbowl with Jon Gruden in 2011 but would win one with Joe Smoe over there in 2008, some people would actually wait until 2011. There's nothing wrong with it, I would just personally go with Joe Smoe. That's also where I differ with some people. It's a business, and if the business is crashing, the crash usually works its way down from the top tiers. It doesn't make those people working on the top tiers bad.

_________________________________________________________
How the heck did I get old enough to have a kid in college?

cheveliar

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 19366
Offline
#53 : November 01, 2006, 10:25:49 AM

I actually agree with many of your statements. I just don't think a title makes a coach exempt from criticism, questioning, or an eventual firing/parting of ways; which is where I differ from many people. I support Gruden, and I think he can right the ship in Tampa Bay. The question is of time, and I don't think he should be given all the time in the world to right that ship if someone else can right it quicker. That's also where I differ with some people. It's a business, and if the business is crashing, the crash usually works its way down from the top tiers. It doesn't make those people working on the top tiers bad.

Neither do I, my point being we are where we are for a multitude of reasons.  At this juncture getting rid of JG marks a rebuilding process vs a transition.  Semantics yes, but none of us want to go through the process of getting a new coach, GM, assistants, and then try to get the team to follow a new guy when we think we have some viable players starting to buy in.  All they need is experience.  Unfortunately you don't come out of college with that.  Some guys learn at a different speed.  It goes back to having more patience, IMO...

Without Carl Nix it feels like our running game just took a death blow to the face!


GrudenFan63

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 4762
Offline
#54 : November 01, 2006, 10:30:44 AM

When you're working a multi-million dollar company that depends on marketability, time and patience isn't always a workable thing.  ;) When you're snake bit, you don't have the luxury of time.

_________________________________________________________
How the heck did I get old enough to have a kid in college?

cheveliar

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 19366
Offline
#55 : November 01, 2006, 11:17:17 AM

When you're working a multi-million dollar company that depends on marketability, time and patience isn't always a workable thing.  ;) When you're snake bit, you don't have the luxury of time.

So explain to me why we don't have the luxury of time?  Our defense is already old and the window of opportunity for us to win with baseball scores is over. We capitalized on what we had when the iron was as hot as it was going to get.  So now what do you do?  You pay your salary cap dues and try to get back to glory.  Sure the Pats have done it in a more fan friendly time, but we aren't the Pats.  I have to believe that every team has their own issues and their own way of dealing with them.  It's generally accepted that they have cajoled their players into following a mindset of giving back to the team in the form of not asking for a boat load of money.  That's 3% of the league!  Can you honestly expect, with what we know about the majority of players in this league, 97% of the others to do the same?

Without Carl Nix it feels like our running game just took a death blow to the face!


keeponbucn

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 11481
Offline
#56 : November 01, 2006, 11:43:13 AM

When you're working a multi-million dollar company that depends on marketability, time and patience isn't always a workable thing.  ;) When you're snake bit, you don't have the luxury of time.


patience is essential in this league but few teams follow that practice. It's a revolving circle, in the end you'll spend more money by changing coaches every 5 years then sticking with a coach you know is moving in the right direction. The Bucs aren't snake bit, far from it. The SB trophy should help with pantience, obviously for some it hasn't. The Bucs are in a transition, this was bound to happen. We should all feel lucky the team pulled out a SB win before this.....

GrudenFan63

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 4762
Offline
#57 : November 01, 2006, 12:06:34 PM

As long as the marketability and money line is continuing to be successful, I think everything will be fine in this 'rebuilding' process. However, when a team suffers, the marketability and viewership suffers too. When that comes, I don't think you can wait forever for a team to rebuild. Right now, the Bucs are still filling the seats at Raymond James. They still have a waiting list for season tickets. But, I think the aspects of a fan have changed some since the 70's. The new crop of "fans," if you want to call them that, are very impatient. They jump like flies when times are tough. I don't think the Bucs can afford time and patience; especially if that time and patience requires a few rough years. Believe it or not; those bandwagon fans actually boost marketability for a franchise. I don't think teams have the luxury of great time these days. It's a 'what have you done for me lately' league; regardless of how many young players you have or how much you have to rebuild. It's difficult for a lot of people to buy into rebuilding phases. It's difficult to tell those people to be patient while trying to keep a progressive movement; because society pushes for quick results.

_________________________________________________________
How the heck did I get old enough to have a kid in college?

BucsNBullsBaby

***
Second String

Posts : 244
Offline
#58 : November 01, 2006, 12:29:59 PM

When you're working a multi-million dollar company that depends on marketability, time and patience isn't always a workable thing.  ;) When you're snake bit, you don't have the luxury of time.

This is laughable.  You have confused profit and wins.  The goal of the team is to make money - not win games.  Winning certainly can help - increased revenue with play-off games, more team merchandise sold, etc.  But you only have to remember that the Bucs made a lot of money - top 5 in the NFL! - when skin-flint Culverhouse put lousy product after lousy product year-after-year on the field. 


GrudenFan63

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 4762
Offline
#59 : November 01, 2006, 01:22:28 PM

The Bucs were profitable because Culverhouse was stingy. If you're a multi-millionaire who refuses to spare a penny; of course you will continue to be a multi-millionaire. The Bucs were a joke in the league. The best thing that ever happened to this franchise is the Glazer family.

_________________________________________________________
How the heck did I get old enough to have a kid in college?
Page: 1 2 3 4 5
Pewter Report  >>  Boards  >>  The Red Board (Moderators: 3rd String Kicker, PRPatrol)  >>  Topic: In Defense Of Gruden (yet again) « previous next »
:

Hide Tools Show Tools