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buckit

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#60 : November 01, 2006, 01:50:32 PM

Not one single person who is actually paid to follow sports (unlike you 'experts') has supported Gruden's game plan or even been able to explain it. Now I know you guys are much more knowledgable, but you are the ONLY ones backing his game plan.



You think because someone is a hack sports writer they actually know ANYTHING about the sport they cover?  Most of them are either outsiders that never played/coached a down in their lives, or utter failures.  Yet it's THEIR opinion you subscribe to?  Well, that explains your position, anyway..

I don't consider myself an expert.  But as a player and a coach, I do like to think I know a little more about the nuts and bolts of the game than some talking head....



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keeponbucn

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#61 : November 01, 2006, 01:55:45 PM

patience is essential in this league but few teams follow that practice. It's a revolving circle, in the end you'll spend more money by changing coaches every 5 years then sticking with a coach you know is moving in the right direction.

This is a funny chicken and the egg argument, how do you know a coach is "moving in the right direction" if he's not producing results that lead in a right direction? That is why coaches get fired because eventually any coach will succeed just given enough time - in the same monkeys with typewriters type of argument. A coach has to win or show some definable progress in order to show "right direction" just being doesn't make it.

Not all coaches would succeed given time but I see your point. This is just me but I feel Gruden's moving the team into a direction for long term success. Obviously you can't see that now but with Bruce creating cap space and Gruden developing the talent this team will be on top within the next two years. You have to put all variables into the equation before saying Gruden's done here. You have to put the no cap space and draft picks into the equation, you have to because has been part of the issue. There's also been poor decisions in personnel (Thomas Jones, K Mac, SoB, etc)  

If Gruden doesn't turn this around in the next two years with cap space and full compliment of draft picks then you fire his ass, bar none.  I won't hesitate to question moves made by Gruden & Co but will do it knowing they have the best interest of the Bucs involved......

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#62 : November 01, 2006, 02:07:10 PM


and Gruden developing the talent this team will be on top within the next two years.


This is my biggest concern. Think about the development of these players after one year of playing under Gruden and what happened in year #2:

Mike Clayton
Caddy Williams
Chris Simms
Alex Smith
Dan Buenning


All got worse or are in the process of being worse. I'm looking for the development from these players and that is what worries me. I'm not seeing growth from them and you wonder about the development process.




Well what are you judging them on?  Further, how do you know that your criteria is the same, or better, for the Bucs? (This should be a goodie...)

Without Carl Nix it feels like our running game just took a death blow to the face!


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#63 : November 01, 2006, 02:24:09 PM

Well what are you judging them on? Further, how do you know that your criteria is the same, or better, for the Bucs? (This should be a goodie...)

Oh I don't know, not getting benched seems to be a good criteria and Simms and Buenning are failing that very basic test. In Buenning's case the left side which was so money last year is a mess - same for Davis BTW just to not let him off this fun trip.

For everyone else I'm just looking at output which is on track to be horribly off. Clayton is on pace to barely best the "He was hurt so it doesn't count" season last year. Caddy is half way to his 14 games season last year and he's on pace to get 25% fewer yards and average about .5 ypc less. Alex Smith is off pace to start (10 games last year 2 this year) and get a handful of fewer catches. None of those things say development but I'm sure there are other measures you can share that you'd use to evaluate players at this point.

By no means would I even attempt to think that I have an eval process that comes close to what is reality.  I watch the game.  At least twice a week and off into the summer.  While stats are important, they don't always work for me as I can't remember them anyway. All of these issues are relative to each other and are linked.  Caddy can't get off because the oline isn't doing their thing.  Running left is tough because Raggedy Ann is getting man handled every freakin week.  Thus the passing game is not working, thus A. Smith and Clayton are not getting the catches...on and on and on...we all know all of this.  But there's always things we don't see or are privy to that go into making the decisions on putting this team together.

How do you think your eval compares to the people at One Buc Palace?  Until we know what they look for it's all conjecture on our parts.  I'm sure some of the stats you use are key stats they look at, but I'm not sure how much weight they carry one way or the other.

Without Carl Nix it feels like our running game just took a death blow to the face!


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#64 : November 01, 2006, 02:50:10 PM

For everyone else I'm just looking at output which is on track to be horribly off. Clayton is on pace to barely best the "He was hurt so it doesn't count" season last year. Caddy is half way to his 14 games season last year and he's on pace to get 25% fewer yards and average about .5 ypc less. Alex Smith is off pace to start (10 games last year 2 this year) and get a handful of fewer catches. None of those things say development but I'm sure there are other measures you can share that you'd use to evaluate players at this point.


Reasonable concern, true. I share that. But I wonder how much the elevated level of competition from last year's to this year's schedule has to do with those numbers..


But the thing that really bothers me is the lack of direction this offense has. What does Gruden want to do? When you make public statements like..

“If we can’t run the ball and run it with authority, there’s no sense in being here. You get in the ring, you take the robe off and you throw punches. That’s how you run the ball. We’ve got to make running the football and protecting the ball a major, major theme here.” - circa 1/05

..then spend the next 2 years building towards that direction, you've built expectations that this team will commit to some kind, any kind, of ground game.

Then, inexplicably, you start throwing the ball excessively behind a line that has supposedly been training for the run, ignoring the record you have when your RB gets 20 carries a game? Not to mention a rookie QB..

My friend, you're sending mixed signals. Not only to the fans, but to the team itself. And face it, without a plan, you're lost.

I'm not saying running the ball will solve our problems, but passing that ball at this pace won't solve anything.






keeponbucn

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#65 : November 01, 2006, 03:42:16 PM

Well what are you judging them on? Further, how do you know that your criteria is the same, or better, for the Bucs? (This should be a goodie...)

Oh I don't know, not getting benched seems to be a good criteria and Simms and Buenning are failing that very basic test. In Buenning's case the left side which was so money last year is a mess - same for Davis BTW just to not let him off this fun trip.

For everyone else I'm just looking at output which is on track to be horribly off. Clayton is on pace to barely best the "He was hurt so it doesn't count" season last year. Caddy is half way to his 14 games season last year and he's on pace to get 25% fewer yards and average about .5 ypc less. Alex Smith is off pace to start (10 games last year 2 this year) and get a handful of fewer catches. None of those things say development but I'm sure there are other measures you can share that you'd use to evaluate players at this point.

By no means would I even attempt to think that I have an eval process that comes close to what is reality.  I watch the game.  At least twice a week and off into the summer.  While stats are important, they don't always work for me as I can't remember them anyway. All of these issues are relative to each other and are linked.  Caddy can't get off because the oline isn't doing their thing.  Running left is tough because Raggedy Ann is getting man handled every freakin week.  Thus the passing game is not working, thus A. Smith and Clayton are not getting the catches...on and on and on...we all know all of this.  But there's always things we don't see or are privy to that go into making the decisions on putting this team together.

How do you think your eval compares to the people at One Buc Palace?  Until we know what they look for it's all conjecture on our parts.  I'm sure some of the stats you use are key stats they look at, but I'm not sure how much weight they carry one way or the other.


There are many variables to the lack of offense production. I don't get why people don't mention the fact that of the BUcs playing behind for 90% of the season. That has an effect on play-calling weather anyone wants to think it or not. Gruden's not going to feed Caddy the ball down 14 points.


RedAlert: Again, don't you think the reason Gruden's isn't running is how behind the Bucs have been in some games? We saw last year that Gruden will feed Caddy to death, why would he all of the sudden change up? It's EASY, very easy to see what's going on.

Some of you think increasing the amount of carries Caddy gets is going to magically change the outcome of this season. There is so much more to it than that.

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#66 : November 01, 2006, 04:07:43 PM

There are many variables to the lack of offense production. I don't get why people don't mention the fact that of the BUcs playing behind for 90% of the season. That has an effect on play-calling weather anyone wants to think it or not. Gruden's not going to feed Caddy the ball down 14 points.


RedAlert: Again, don't you think the reason Gruden's isn't running is how behind the Bucs have been in some games? We saw last year that Gruden will feed Caddy to death, why would he all of the sudden change up? It's EASY, very easy to see what's going on.

Some of you think increasing the amount of carries Caddy gets is going to magically change the outcome of this season. There is so much more to it than that.


There's no reason to abandon the run down by 2 scores until you're in the 4th quarter. There's still plenty of time to score. Gruden gives up much sooner, though the pass offense is even worse, he seems to panic into throwing the ball 40 times a game.

Again, turning to a portion of the quote you seem to ignore.. "If we can’t run the ball and run it with authority, there’s no sense in being here. You get in the ring, you take the robe off and you throw punches..."

That's a publically stated philosophy. A commitment to the run, in words. If a man doesn't keep his word..

And look at the facts:

gm 1 - 35 pass, 12 run, L 0-27
gm 2 - 53 pass, 15 run, L 3-14

gm 3 - 25 pass, 23 run, L 24-26
gm 4 - 31 pass, 27 run, L 21-24

gm 5 - 44 pass, 21 run, W 14-13
gm 6 - 26 pass, 27 run, W 23-21

gm 7 - 48 pass, 10 run,  L 3-17

It's right there in black and white for Gruden and the whole world to see. We may not magically start winning with the run, but we're obviously more competitive when we don't abandon it completely. And that has nothing to do with who is playing QB.

Jon Gruden should never talk run game if he doesn't mean it..    :(





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#67 : November 01, 2006, 04:21:08 PM

For everyone else I'm just looking at output which is on track to be horribly off. Clayton is on pace to barely best the "He was hurt so it doesn't count" season last year. Caddy is half way to his 14 games season last year and he's on pace to get 25% fewer yards and average about .5 ypc less. Alex Smith is off pace to start (10 games last year 2 this year) and get a handful of fewer catches. None of those things say development but I'm sure there are other measures you can share that you'd use to evaluate players at this point.



Reasonable concern, true. I share that. But I wonder how much the elevated level of competition from last year's to this year's schedule has to do with those numbers..


But the thing that really bothers me is the lack of direction this offense has. What does Gruden want to do? When you make public statements like..

“If we can’t run the ball and run it with authority, there’s no sense in being here. You get in the ring, you take the robe off and you throw punches. That’s how you run the ball. We’ve got to make running the football and protecting the ball a major, major theme here.” - circa 1/05

..then spend the next 2 years building towards that direction, you've built expectations that this team will commit to some kind, any kind, of ground game.

Then, inexplicably, you start throwing the ball excessively behind a line that has supposedly been training for the run, ignoring the record you have when your RB gets 20 carries a game? Not to mention a rookie QB..

My friend, you're sending mixed signals. Not only to the fans, but to the team itself. And face it, without a plan, you're lost.

I'm not saying running the ball will solve our problems, but passing that ball at this pace won't solve anything.








I agree, it confuses me as well how a running team has just abandoned it.

keeponbucn

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#68 : November 01, 2006, 04:22:51 PM

There are many variables to the lack of offense production. I don't get why people don't mention the fact that of the BUcs playing behind for 90% of the season. That has an effect on play-calling weather anyone wants to think it or not. Gruden's not going to feed Caddy the ball down 14 points.


RedAlert: Again, don't you think the reason Gruden's isn't running is how behind the Bucs have been in some games? We saw last year that Gruden will feed Caddy to death, why would he all of the sudden change up? It's EASY, very easy to see what's going on.

Some of you think increasing the amount of carries Caddy gets is going to magically change the outcome of this season. There is so much more to it than that.


There's no reason to abandon the run down by 2 scores until you're in the 4th quarter. There's still plenty of time to score. Gruden gives up much sooner, though the pass offense is even worse, he seems to panic into throwing the ball 40 times a game.

Again, turning to a portion of the quote you seem to ignore.. "If we can’t run the ball and run it with authority, there’s no sense in being here. You get in the ring, you take the robe off and you throw punches..."

That's a publically stated philosophy. A commitment to the run, in words. If a man doesn't keep his word..

And look at the facts:

gm 1 - 35 pass, 12 run, L 0-27
gm 2 - 53 pass, 15 run, L 3-14

gm 3 - 25 pass, 23 run, L 24-26
gm 4 - 31 pass, 27 run, L 21-24

gm 5 - 44 pass, 21 run, W 14-13
gm 6 - 26 pass, 27 run, W 23-21

gm 7 - 48 pass, 10 run,  L 3-17

It's right there in black and white for Gruden and the whole world to see. We may not magically start winning with the run, but we're obviously more competitive when we don't abandon it completely. And that has nothing to do with who is playing QB.

Jon Gruden should never talk run game if he doesn't mean it..    :(







Funny, look at all games where the team is down by 14 points, no matter at what point in the game, and tell me how many runs the OC called. Tell me. How many runs did Brad Childress call on MOnday night down 2 scores?? Can you tell me? That dude is known to just pound the pill on the ground and he's chucking the ball all over the place. Why? Because his team is down 2 scores. The clock moving is your enemy becuase there's only so many times you touch the pill in a game. It's pretty simple

If you look at the play-calling within the context of the game and not by numbers alone you'd come with a different conclusion. To your quote, THE BUCS ARENT RUNNING WITH AUTHORITY, CADDY GETS BLASTED AS SOON AS HE GETS THE PILL! WTF is wrong with some of you?

You make it seem like just increasing the rushing attempts is the ONLY variable to losing.  

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#69 : November 01, 2006, 05:25:15 PM


Funny, look at all games where the team is down by 14 points, no matter at what point in the game, and tell me how many runs the OC called. Tell me. How many runs did Brad Childress call on MOnday night down 2 scores?? Can you tell me? That dude is known to just pound the pill on the ground and he's chucking the ball all over the place. Why? Because his team is down 2 scores. The clock moving is your enemy becuase there's only so many times you touch the pill in a game. It's pretty simple

If you look at the play-calling within the context of the game and not by numbers alone you'd come with a different conclusion. To your quote, THE BUCS ARENT RUNNING WITH AUTHORITY, CADDY GETS BLASTED AS SOON AS HE GETS THE PILL! WTF is wrong with some of you?

You make it seem like just increasing the rushing attempts is the ONLY variable to losing.


Nobody said that, you just have some kind of issue with running the ball. You seem to think it's some kind of poison to the offense.

Even if Caddy is getting stuffed, run blocking is an aggressive tactic. The OL delivers the blow, rather than backpedaling into pass protection. When you pound something, it wears down. When you back away from something, it remains strong. Simple physics that apply perfectly to the trenches in football. Anybody who knows the game understands that.

Right now, neither option, run or pass, is going to turn the season around, so Gruden should stick to his stated objective of establishing a running game and at least sustaining the balance that we clearly need to remain competitive. 


BTW, what Childress or any other coach does is irrelevent..

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#70 : November 01, 2006, 05:30:04 PM

Funny, look at all games where the team is down by 14 points, no matter at what point in the game, and tell me how many runs the OC called. Tell me. How many runs did Brad Childress call on MOnday night down 2 scores?? Can you tell me? That dude is known to just pound the pill on the ground and he's chucking the ball all over the place. Why? Because his team is down 2 scores. The clock moving is your enemy becuase there's only so many times you touch the pill in a game. It's pretty simple

If you look at the play-calling within the context of the game and not by numbers alone you'd come with a different conclusion. To your quote, THE BUCS ARENT RUNNING WITH AUTHORITY, CADDY GETS BLASTED AS SOON AS HE GETS THE PILL! WTF is wrong with some of you?

You make it seem like just increasing the rushing attempts is the ONLY variable to losing.

Nobody said that, you just have some kind of issue with running the ball. You seem to think it's some kind of poison to the offense.

Even if Caddy is getting stuffed, run blocking is an aggressive tactic. The OL delivers the blow, rather than backpedaling into pass protection. When you pound something, it wears down. When you back away from something, it remains strong. Simple physics that apply perfectly to the trenches in football. Anybody who knows that game understands that.

Right now, neither option, run or pass, is going to turn the season around, so Gruden should stick to his stated objective of establishing a running game and at least sustaining the balance that we clearly need to remain competitive. 


I agree.  Not only are the Bucs lacking an offensive identity but a sense of direction on offense.  I want the Bucs to have a balanced offense that uses a lot of misdirection like Denver and the Texans use.  We saw glimpses of this in the New Orleans game.  This game the offense came alive through the air and on the ground.  Carnell had his first 100 yard day as a result.  Why deviate from that balanced attack that is exactly the image of what Gruden wants to do on offense?

BTW, what Childress or any other coach does is irrelevent..

I disagree.  Childress is on record as well that he will pound the ball on offense unlike what Reid did in Philly with his pass happy offense.  Gruden and Childress both have strayed away from what they wanted to do for various reasons.

With that said down 14 points you can still run the ball.  But to do it in nearly every game this year is hard to do especially with the way the defense has been struggling.




buckit

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#71 : November 01, 2006, 05:41:30 PM

Guys, guys, guys...New coaches in their first season on a new team will a lot of times see quick, short term success.  Wait till years 3, 4 or 5 to really evaluate the job they're doing...


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Please sell the team to Eddie DeBartolo.

Thank you,
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#72 : November 01, 2006, 05:42:29 PM

Guys, guys, guys...New coaches in their first season on a new team will a lot of times see quick, short term success.  Wait till years 3, 4 or 5 to really evaluate the job they're doing...

hmm.......well he is in his 5th year and we suck, so does that mean Gruden stinks.   ???


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#73 : November 01, 2006, 07:01:37 PM

Guys, guys, guys...New coaches in their first season on a new team will a lot of times see quick, short term success.  Wait till years 3, 4 or 5 to really evaluate the job they're doing...

hmm.......well he is in his 5th year and we suck, so does that mean Gruden stinks. ???



Now there's a provocative reply...



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#74 : November 01, 2006, 07:24:05 PM

we do have to be realist here... lets see only one good season we have since the SB season in 02. we all know this. but many of us can't admit that maybe this coaching staff is slipping or has been slipping since 02. they regrouped last year but then had to let some key coaches go. i think we are seeing the difference in that this year.
i think we have to see how he regroups the team this season and then next season. especially since we will have cap room and there will be no excuse this time for not getting more good players. if we suck next year then his job will be on the chopping block.
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