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psymun

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: November 04, 2006, 03:10:19 PM

I'm not a pro scout, but these are a few things I've noticed watching some of the players that many of you seem to think would be incredible players...

Calvin Johnson? Dwayne Jarrett... The same can be said for both of them... Neither does a whole lot after the catch. Don't get me wrong, they have great speed, athleticism, and hands, and they truely are incredible prospects, but  neither of them are really west coast receivers. Both have been taken out of games COMPLETELY which is something that you don't see in college football with ELITE players.

How about Quentin Moses and Gaines Adams? I can couple these 2 together also.  Both of them can be completely nutralized. I'm watching the Clemson game right now, and I've watched the Georgia games too, and when they get double-teamed on running plays, they seemingly give up. They actually remind me of Rice.

Now, each of the players I mentioned have dominated their opponents at times, but for being elite Top 10 picks, they shouldn't be as easily neutralized as they are.

Just to add to my point... Mark Anderson was consistently dominant in college... Where is he now? Why did he fall? He lacked the elite speed and athleticism, but it seems like he has done quite well...

Mario Williams on the other hand... was able to be neutralized from time to time and look at how he's doing in the NFL...

I'm not saying none of these players will develop, and I'm not saying players like Mark Anderson will continue to be standouts... my only point is that these "Elite" players aren't as elite as you all try to make them out to be...


OpTiOnMaStA

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#1 : November 04, 2006, 03:21:10 PM

As far as Calvin Johnson goes, look at his QB. He has to depend on his QB in order to be dominant. DEs don't have to depend on anybody, so if you think they aren't dominant it is much easier to say that they are the cause of their own neutralization. You can't really say that with a WR unless you constantly study them.

I think Johnson is definately dominant. Jarrett isn't, but I think Johnson really is.

psymun

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#2 : November 04, 2006, 03:45:06 PM

Ok, he's dominant? Then why is it that against TROY STATE he had 2 catches for 9 yards? His QB threw 2 TDs, 2 INTs and went  13 of 29 for 164 yards. He was obviously able to throw it to SOMEONE....

And how about against Clemson? 0 catches, and 1 rush for -4 yards... While his QB was 12 of 25 1 TD 1 INT and 117 yards... So your excuse now will be it's because his QB played poorly correct?

Well against Virginia Tech, his QB was 9 of 16 with 2-2 td-int and 176 yards... and Johnson had 6 catches and 2 TDs

How about last year?

Johnson last 2 games (Against Georgia and Utah) he had 4 catches for 33 yards in 2 games!!! Meanwhile his QB was 36 of 73 for over 400 yards 2 TDs and 4 INTs...

Now, true, a QB doing poorly hinders a receiver's effectiveness... but with how dominant everyone tries to make Johnson out to be... Why is it that Troy State and Utah can nutralize him? (I'll overlook Gerogia and Clemson).


leeroybuc93

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#3 : November 04, 2006, 04:37:28 PM

No receiver is dominant in every game.  The QB is bad yes, but he also tends to try too hard to get other players involved and forgets Johnson for stretches.  Also Johnson is often triple covered.  That answers your question about why the QB is hitting others but not Johnson.  In the NFL you cannot triple cover any receiver.  If we had Johnson, and he was triple covered on nearly every play, Clayton would have a 1500 yeard season.

As for the Virginia Tech game, I was there, and Johnson was a complete MONSTER after the catch!

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#4 : November 04, 2006, 05:02:41 PM

As far as Calvin Johnson goes, look at his QB. He has to depend on his QB in order to be dominant. DEs don't have to depend on anybody, so if you think they aren't dominant it is much easier to say that they are the cause of their own neutralization. You can't really say that with a WR unless you constantly study them.

I think Johnson is definately dominant. Jarrett isn't, but I think Johnson really is.

Right on the money!



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#5 : November 04, 2006, 05:49:56 PM

Good points. I disagree on some of them but good points. Mark Anderson and Elvis Dumervil dropped big time because of measurements and theyre both doing very good after dominating in college.

MArio Williams had spurts, numbers wise, but I watched him 4 or 5 times last year and I always saw him dominating and putting pressure on the QB. He will be a very good DE like Peppers IMO.

Its  tough to read DEs sometimes. They see 1000 snaps over the course of the season and the great ones make names for themselves by getting to the QB 12-15 times. Hard to find a position in any other sport that has that little success. Personally I thin Gaines Adams is worth a top 10 pick.

how about Joe Thomas and Levi Brown, tehy are impressive every week.



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#6 : November 04, 2006, 05:51:45 PM

I'd be in favor of Dan Bazuin of CMU, he's dominated in college even while being double teamed

psymun

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#7 : November 04, 2006, 05:53:51 PM

Just watch a whole game of Calvin Johnson... He has great hands and leaping ability and great speed... but he has no YAC ability, and he is not dominant throughout the whole game...


dbtb135

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#8 : November 05, 2006, 03:56:02 AM

A lot of the Rams games I watch, and I get them every week (thanks STL), Torry Holt isn't a monster when it comes to being elusive after the catch. Yet, he is one of the best receivers I have ever seen. Better than eveyrone I've seen in the past dozen or so years minus Rice and Moss pre-2003. I don't think a lot of WRs need to be great after the catch, just be able to have some moves, speed, hands, etc to get the occasional 25+ yard gain. Also, a lot can go into shutting down a WR. It's not like RB where you can ensure that they get X number of carries. Other options, coverage, pass rush, game plan and situation can all take a WR out of the game, especially Johnson when he is threat A, B, C, and maybe D on that team.

As for DEs, Moses and Adams are NOT in the same class as far as this season goes. Moses gets handled 1 on 1 routinely as I've seen. Adams has pretty much been his usual beastly self, but not every game. I disagree on Anderson though. For one, I saw many Bama games his senior year. Which explains my man crush on Demeco Ryans. But I digress. I can't speak for his first 3 years there, but his senior year he was not dominant at all. He never really stood out on that D like Ryans did. Guys like him, Roach, Peprah, and more notably Harper and Gilberry all stepped up when they needed a play, but none of them really made their presence known for an entire game or stood out to the point where I'd call them dominant. I wouldn't even call Ryans dominant.

Also on Anderson, he's a good pass rusher, and he's allowed to do that almost exclusively with the Bears. He's a real talented rotation player. Not taking away from him, but he's not as good as his numbers indicate.

BTownBucFan

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#9 : November 05, 2006, 08:24:39 AM

I'm not a pro scout, but these are a few things I've noticed watching some of the players that many of you seem to think would be incredible players...

Calvin Johnson? Dwayne Jarrett... The same can be said for both of them... Neither does a whole lot after the catch. Don't get me wrong, they have great speed, athleticism, and hands, and they truely are incredible prospects, but  neither of them are really west coast receivers. Both have been taken out of games COMPLETELY which is something that you don't see in college football with ELITE players.

How about Quentin Moses and Gaines Adams? I can couple these 2 together also.  Both of them can be completely nutralized. I'm watching the Clemson game right now, and I've watched the Georgia games too, and when they get double-teamed on running plays, they seemingly give up. They actually remind me of Rice.

Now, each of the players I mentioned have dominated their opponents at times, but for being elite Top 10 picks, they shouldn't be as easily neutralized as they are.

Just to add to my point... Mark Anderson was consistently dominant in college... Where is he now? Why did he fall? He lacked the elite speed and athleticism, but it seems like he has done quite well...

Mario Williams on the other hand... was able to be neutralized from time to time and look at how he's doing in the NFL...

I'm not saying none of these players will develop, and I'm not saying players like Mark Anderson will continue to be standouts... my only point is that these "Elite" players aren't as elite as you all try to make them out to be...

I agreed with most of it but the Anderson/Williams.  If you swap those guys - their stats would swap too.  Anderson is playing with PRO BOWL talent so when he comes in, all he has to do is play "well".  Williams is being targeted by other teams since he is a starter, so teams game plan him and who does he play every down with ... oh yeah - nobody.
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