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CurtR1995

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: November 14, 2006, 05:33:35 PM

I don't see the talent you see.  That right side of the line is the worst I can ever remember in Tampa, and that is saying a lot.  Granted, they are rookies, but rookie OLine are starting all over the league with good success.  Trueblood can not play tackle in this league, and Joseph is getting abused out there.  They were supposed to be Shell/Upshaw.  We would be lucky if they turn out to be Coleman/Odom, but that isn't likely. 

Clayton is a flat out bust, and Caddy may just be on his way to that level.  That means that we have had three terrible drafts in a row under Allen/Gruden, and that can not happen anymore.

IF Gruden is allowed to stay, he will stay without Allen and the rest of his cronies like Hackett et al.  You point to Allen "clearing" out the cap.  Clearing out the cap AND remaining competitive is the trick, not letting the team fall to Raider levels in the process.  Close to one third of the teams will have that level of cap room going forward, so there is no guarantee  that players will be lining up to play for Gruden and his 3 out of 4 losing seasons. 

That display last night, and the fact that this team is a 62 yard FG and a lucky roughing the passer penalty from being 0-9, and that all adds up to a lack of talent and coaching.  Changes must be made.

alldaway

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#1 : November 14, 2006, 09:37:06 AM

It is understandable if an offense with a lot of a young players led by a rookie struggles. With that said I saw a lot of mistakes from Wade and Galloway as well.  This to me points to a larger problem than just youth as the fundamentals are simply not there.  Also the problem with fundamentals on offense and missed assingments has been a problem for a while now not just this year.

Gruden has to win at least 5 games this year to keep his job in my opinion becuase I do not see Gruden being the head coach heading into 2007 with the way things are going.

Gruden does have the talent on offense to make it work contrary to what many believe.  I do not have a problem with Gruden the OC when he calls plays most of the time.  His players at times have failed to take advantage of good play calling.  With that said it is the responsibility of the OC and the head coach that a team is fundamentally sound.  Gruden's offense has never looked fundamentally sound except the Super Bowl team and that was quickly dismantled.

A good coach like Sean Peyton could work with this o-line and produce results on offense.  Clayton would be held accountable and Galloway as well for not trying to haul in some passes.  Stovall along with Hilliard would see the field more.  Alstott and Carnell would be used a lot more and would work with Carnell to fix his fumbling issues.  Gruden is a good QB coach but Peyton is a notch better and would really help accelerate Gradkowski's learning curve. Becht would not see the field and Smith would have a greater role on offense. 

Why should the Bucs blow up the offense again?  Has logic been lost here?  Blow up the o-line, find a new RB, find new WR's, find a new TE, find a new QB, etc. We have been down this road now two times already?

Folks the problem is not with the players entirely.  It falls on Gruden's shoulders.  A better coach could do a lot more with what the Bucs have to work with. In terms of talent on offense the Bucs are middle of the road average.  With a young offense I expected a below average offense.  But right now it is far worse than a below average offense.



CeriousBuc

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#2 : November 14, 2006, 09:54:40 AM

Folks the problem is not with the players entirely. It falls on Gruden's shoulders. A better coach could do a lot more with what the Bucs have to work with. In terms of talent on offense the Bucs are middle of the road average. With a young offense I expected a below average offense. But right now it is far worse than a below average offense.

Exactly what is worse than below average?

Below average is bad, period, at least it is in this league. Average is not good either, it wouldn't get you into the playoffs and it woldn't garuantee a winning season either. In this league your team is either, elite, good, above average, average or below average. There is nothing worse than that. For example, the Colts are elite, the Bears are good, the Eagles are above average, the Bengals are average and the Bucs, Lions, Browns, Titans, Cardinals are below average.



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#3 : November 14, 2006, 10:00:12 AM

With all the youngsters, maybe Gruden should simplify things and stop all the shifts and verbage/terminology???

alldaway

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#4 : November 14, 2006, 10:01:29 AM

Folks the problem is not with the players entirely. It falls on Gruden's shoulders. A better coach could do a lot more with what the Bucs have to work with. In terms of talent on offense the Bucs are middle of the road average. With a young offense I expected a below average offense. But right now it is far worse than a below average offense.

Exactly what is worse than below average?

Below average is bad, period, at least it is in this league. Average is not good either, it wouldn't get you into the playoffs and it woldn't garuantee a winning season either. In this league your team is either, elite, good, above average, average or below average. There is nothing worse than that. For example, the Colts are elite, the Bears are good, the Eagles are above average, the Bengals are average and the Bucs, Lions, Browns, Titans, Cardinals are below average.

Gruden has blown up the offense two times now.  If the offense is blown up again I would lose a lot of faith in him.  The excuse that he does not have enough talent to work with does not work.  There are plenty of coaches in the league with average talent on offense doing more with playing rookies and young players on their squads. 

Average means it is good enough to win football games. Elite, good, above average, average or below average and poor.  The Bucs have average talent but they are playing poorly.  Worse than below average by a large margin.  This is becuase of coaching.  So if the Bucs bring in elite talent and pay these player top dollar should we expect average play? If that is the best Gruden can muster than I do not think he will be here for long.

We have seen countless mistakes and missed assingments on offense not just young guys learning to play in this league but by veterans (Becht, Wade,Galloway).

With all the youngsters, maybe Gruden should simplify things and stop all the shifts and verbage/terminology???


It has been a problem for veteran players as well.  I am all for making things easier.  Just line up and play.  The shifts are there to help the QB (but if you have a young QB that is still learning it will not help him at all) determine what the defense wants to do. 

acacius

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#5 : November 14, 2006, 10:23:31 AM

I'm inclined to think that Gruden does get another season after this one if he wants it, but the way things have gone, I'll also be unsurprised if he's forced to change up his offensive staff.  I know it's a limited data set, but that's the parallel that existed with Dungy.  Dungy tried different players for his offense.  That didn't help.  So he was pretty much forced by the owners to get a new offensive coordinator.  It was only after that failed to change the end results of things that he was given his walking papers.  Of course, Gruden may very well not want to give up any control of the offense to stay here.  But I expect at least *some* changes to be made, one way or the other.

abucsfan

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#6 : November 14, 2006, 10:25:58 AM

Maybe what Kornheiser said last night could be the answer -  Why not cut it down to like seven plays that work to help out the kid!
http://www.sptimes.com/2006/11/14/Bucs/BucShotz.shtml

alldaway

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#7 : November 14, 2006, 10:32:58 AM

I'm inclined to think that Gruden does get another season after this one if he wants it, but the way things have gone, I'll also be unsurprised if he's forced to change up his offensive staff.  I know it's a limited data set, but that's the parallel that existed with Dungy.  Dungy tried different players for his offense.  That didn't help.  So he was pretty much forced by the owners to get a new offensive coordinator.  It was only after that failed to change the end results of things that he was given his walking papers.  Of course, Gruden may very well not want to give up any control of the offense to stay here.  But I expect at least *some* changes to be made, one way or the other.

Yeah the difference is Gruden is the offensive coordinator as well.  This is why I would not be suprised if Gruden is released after this season.  Like I said earlier the Bucs offense needs to show improvement and Gruden has to win at least five wins to keep his job. 

Mohawkbucs

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#8 : November 14, 2006, 10:43:52 AM

I dont know why i just dont see Gruden leaving, i mean ya im mad that the bucs are 2-7, but i dont see any other coaches that we could get that would be any better, maybe we should hire a o coordinator so gruden can coach or something!!


alldaway

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#9 : November 14, 2006, 10:49:23 AM

The Glazers could give Gruden another chance or let another coach walk into a good situation (cap space, top draft picks).  With the way things are progressing I am not so sure anymore.  And with the way the public opinion has completely turned on Gruden I would not be suprised if the Glazers pulled the trigger. 

I am feeling that same feeling I had when it was Dungy's last year and I hope I am wrong. 


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#10 : November 14, 2006, 10:50:40 AM

Bill Cowher?



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#11 : November 14, 2006, 10:51:40 AM


I am feeling that same feeling I had when it was Dungy's last year and I hope I am wrong. 



So am I and with us likely to only win 1 maybe 2 more games, its gonna get much worse.

keeponbucn

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#12 : November 14, 2006, 10:52:41 AM

It is understandable if an offense with a lot of a young players led by a rookie struggles. With that said I saw a lot of mistakes from Wade and Galloway as well. This to me points to a larger problem than just youth as the fundamentals are simply not there. Also the problem with fundamentals on offense and missed assingments has been a problem for a while now not just this year.

Gruden has to win at least 5 games this year to keep his job in my opinion becuase I do not see Gruden being the head coach heading into 2007 with the way things are going.

with the way what is going? If this is a vet team then yes, I agree, but it's not. Sorry, don't agree with you.

Gruden does have the talent on offense to make it work contrary to what many believe. I do not have a problem with Gruden the OC when he calls plays most of the time. His players at times have failed to take advantage of good play calling. With that said it is the responsibility of the OC and the head coach that a team is fundamentally sound. Gruden's offense has never looked fundamentally sound except the Super Bowl team and that was quickly dismantled.

he does have the talent. You say it's up to the players to make plays but then say it's up to the coaches to make sure the players a fundemnetally sound. Well, the players a f&cking up most of the time this year. Were you saying this about the team last year? WR's dropping balls is ridiculous, OL missing assignments is ridiculous, missing tackles is ridiculous. The players have been put in position to make plays this year and haven't come through. Stop crying about this.

A good coach like Sean Peyton could work with this o-line and produce results on offense. Clayton would be held accountable and Galloway as well for not trying to haul in some passes. Stovall along with Hilliard would see the field more. Alstott and Carnell would be used a lot more and would work with Carnell to fix his fumbling issues. Gruden is a good QB coach but Peyton is a notch better and would really help accelerate Gradkowski's learning curve. Becht would not see the field and Smith would have a greater role on offense.

Sean Payton? Good lord man you've lost it. This is your opinion correct? So it's your opinion that Peyton could accelerate the learning curve for Grads? Do you honestly think that? Drew Brees is a stud QB, it's great to have one of those running your offense like say Rich Gannon. Yeah, Gruden's offense sucked when he had a stud QB leading the way. This is a typical arm chair HC post and I thought you were better than that ADW.

Why should the Bucs blow up the offense again? Has logic been lost here? Blow up the o-line, find a new RB, find new WR's, find a new TE, find a new QB, etc. We have been down this road now two times already?

blow up the offense? What are you talking about? They have players in place to have a very good offense but they need to gain the experience. IMO the Bucs only need a C, LT, and 1 WR. They've been adding young players for the past few years to BUILD AN OFFENSE. It's simple, the Defense will have the most change to it.

Folks the problem is not with the players entirely. It falls on Gruden's shoulders. A better coach could do a lot more with what the Bucs have to work with. In terms of talent on offense the Bucs are middle of the road average. With a young offense I expected a below average offense. But right now it is far worse than a below average offense.

of course it falls on the HC as it does with any other team. Again, Gruden put the players in positions to make plays last night and it didn't happen. This sky is falling crap is getting on my nerves. Did you watch the game last night? We had freak'n PS players playing defense for donkey's sake. Grads missed a few big plays that I'm sure he's pissed off about right now. Gruden called a good game, let's not get it twisted here.




CeriousBuc

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#13 : November 14, 2006, 10:54:24 AM

Bill Cowher?

LOL. You know what? People were calling for Bill's Head a few years ago and he had similar problems over his 10 year reign, but he finally got his team back to the Super Bowl.

BucsGuru

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#14 : November 14, 2006, 10:58:56 AM

I've been saying this all along; this is Gruden's last year in Tampa.  After last year, many fans, as well as ownership IMO, expected much more from this team.  It hasn't happened, and it isn't going to get any better.  In his press conference last night, Jon mentioned records didn't matter, but the pain is just pain.  Records do matter.  He also mentioned Luke being hurt in preseason, as if he ever really thought for once about using him this season.  Putting too much stock in Simms was the disaster.  I can't blame him though; I probably would have done the same thing after how the guy looked last season.  But he is really just a maturing rookie himself, and Gruden had knighted him as the next great hope. 
If we lose to the Skins this week, I don't see us having much of a chance at winning another game this season, unless the other team implodes(very propable in this league.) 
Before anyone else mentions this, please don't start mentioning the coach from Rutgers as a replacement.  "Chop the wood" sounds too much like "pound the rock."
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