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alldaway

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#60 : November 21, 2006, 10:23:04 AM

There is a middle ground to this  and I will try to close gap even though at this point everyone is at a polar opposite it seems.  Bascially no I did not expect the same team from last year with a few draft additions to be an 11-5 team this year.  With a harder schedule and the difficulty of repeating as NFC South division winner and a playoff appearance is hard to do in the salary cap era.  With that said what I did expect was a 9-7 team with a top fifteen running game and a defense in the top fifteen. So far the defense started off on the wrong foot but even with the injuries may end up being a top fifteen as they have climbed back out of the hole.  On offense the running game has been really dissapointing.  The entire offense is built around it (eg big offensive lineman).  That is why it is baffling as to why all of sudden the offense has become pass first.  Understandanble when you are down becuase the defense is playing worse that the 49ers defense of last year earlier on but the defense started to settle down and the running game was still missing in action until this last Sunday.

Missed tackles and dropped balls is not a lack of talent.  It is simply a coaching issues.  Amazing how the same talent on defense for the most part looks better now that the they are tackling better now no?

It will be even more amazing if the Bucs can eliminate the drops on offense with the same talent.  See a trend?  Clayton is bashed the most for it but in reality Alex Smith, Galloway and Alstott are equally if not more guilty for it.  This is where they have to work on pass catching.




DanTurksGhost

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#61 : November 21, 2006, 10:28:16 AM

As you know I tried to be objective as possible and predicted 8 wins this year. I really saw it as 7, but I absolutely loathe posting a losing record as a prediction because of my nature being a fan. So this drop out of contention was not unforseen by some of us in this forum. That's because you simply can't take last year's result and use it to make any sense of this year's. It's like that old, untrue adage that gets tossed around about players: "He can only get better". Sorry, it ain't true.

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#62 : November 21, 2006, 10:31:47 AM

There's also nothing that says 11-5 last year means 11-5 this year but it sure as heck doesn't mean 3-7 now does it?

Clearly it does mean that, because that's exactly what happened. 11-5 last year means absolutely nothing about this year. 11-5 last year could mean 0-16 this year.

alldaway

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#63 : November 21, 2006, 10:39:49 AM

I guess if you are gonna go to bat for inconsistency boy you have to take that stand given his track record but for most folks watching a team go 11-5 implies that their coaching and talent is good enough to be a winning team again, or at least a .500 team. We're a long way from that.

This is key.  At this point I want this team to finish out on a postive note but this team has fallen short of being at least a .500 ball club.  IF they even reach .500 this year I have to tip my hat to Gruden for accomplishing that.   The next few games will be a brutal stretch that is for sure.

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#64 : November 21, 2006, 10:43:02 AM

So in your opinion that 11 win season means nothing?

Correct.

Your stand actually begs the question of why we should believe 2007 means anything since the results of that year are not indicative of what will be in 2008, right? Progress isn't implied by anything right?

Correct. It's called parity. It is what this league has striven for for a long, long time. What your record was last year is absolutely not indicative of what your record will be this year. If it was, then the Steelers would be on their way to another championship instead of languishing at 4-6.

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#65 : November 21, 2006, 10:56:10 AM

Whether or not Gruden will be fired after this year, next year, or coach here until he's 70; that will depend on his overall consistency with the team. The one argument I think that some people are trying to make is that 11-5 doesn't matter to this team. Whereas it's true that 11-5 happened last season, does that not also mean that the 12-4 Superbowl team doesn't matter either? That happened even longer ago. If it doesn't matter, there are many people who would be questioning their own stances. I've seen many people state that, because Gruden won a Superbowl, that spares him for awhile. If you believe that 11-5 doesn't matter, but a Superbowl spares Gruden, that's a contradiction.

My opinion; I think that you do look at the big picture. I think the fact that they were 11-5 last season does matter, but it doesn't stand out by itself. There are different situations, schedules, etc. that have happened over the last five years, but you look at the big picture. 12-4, 7-9, 5-11, 11-5, 3-7 (right now). Those do matter; because it can indicate the regression or the progression of a franchise. If you enjoy mathematics; you can even see a pattern developing. I'm not saying that pattern will actually happen, but you can't always just judge a coach by what he does this year. You look at everything. With that said, I don't believe Gruden will walk out of Tampa this off-season. I do think, however, that it's possible to part ways with him. No coach is exempt; not even with a ring on his finger.

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JavaBuc

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#66 : November 21, 2006, 11:05:04 AM

No coach is exempt; not even with a ring on his finger.

I've never seen a single person on this board ever say Gruden was exempt from anything.   But given the circumstances of lost draft picks and aging  veterans, it's not yet time to even consider getting rid of him.    I don't understand the mindset of anyone who would think that it would be a good move to find a new head coach at this point.    

alldaway

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#67 : November 21, 2006, 11:05:16 AM

This is key.  At this point I want this team to finish out on a postive note but this team has fallen short of being at least a .500 ball club.  IF they even reach .500 this year I have to tip my hat to Gruden for accomplishing that.   The next few games will be a brutal stretch that is for sure.

It is even less the record than how we've played. The expectation of growth off 11-5 wasn't unreasonable.

Young QB coming off a solid 8 game stretch should develop -> wrong
Young WR coming back off injury should return to form -> Wrong
Veteran WR coming off career years maintains form ->Wrong
Young RB coming off good year hold form ->Wrong
Young TE develops into legit starter ->Wrong
Young OL improves with new talent and experience and "gelling" -> Wrong
Veteran #1 defense hold serve, might not be #1 but at least top half -> Wrong

That is why this season looks so bad.

That about sums it up.

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#68 : November 21, 2006, 11:22:57 AM

No coach is exempt; not even with a ring on his finger.

I've never seen a single person on this board ever say Gruden was exempt from anything.   But given the circumstances of lost draft picks and aging  veterans, it's not yet time to even consider getting rid of him.    I don't understand the mindset of anyone who would think that it would be a good move to find a new head coach at this point.    

I was generalizing the comment makers; Java. I wasn't specifically talking about this forum. But, I have even seen people on here in the past make similar statements; without using the word 'exempt'. It's the ones who say 'Gruden's here until he decides to quit', 'Gruden's here forever', 'he's not going anywhere for a very long time', etc. That may be true that Gruden doesn't part ways in the near future; whether voluntarily or by force. But, to say that he will be here forever is a potential stretch too. Whether those comments are made in humor or honesty, they are still potential stretches of the truth. No one knows right now but parties directly involved, and I don't think anyone but them needs to know right now anyways.

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#69 : November 21, 2006, 12:56:57 PM

Quote
Young OL improves with new talent and experience and "gelling" -> Wrong

Agree with you except for the quoted line above.

When 2 rookies have less than a half dozen starts to date, that is more "raw talent" than good at this stage IMO.

But then, here I go again, just voicing an opinion....while I try to dodge the return fire.

umguy1999

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#70 : November 21, 2006, 01:58:22 PM

YOU KNOW, PEOPLE THAT ARE BUCS FANS ARE ENTITLED TO THEIR OPINIONS, AND IF THEY DON'T LIKE GRUDEN OR WOULD LIKE TO SEE HIM GET FIRED, GET OVER IT.!!!!!!!!!
ITCHALOT, KEEPONBUCIN, AND THE MANY OTHERS, GROW UP AND ACT LIKE ADULTS!! IT'S PRETTY OBVIOUS WHERE MANY OF YOU GUYS STAND ON THE GRUDEN ISSUE, BUT IF SOMEONE ELSE DIFFERS, AGAIN, GET OVER IT!!!
MANY OF YOU THAT HAVE BEEN POSTING HERE ACT AS THOUGH YOU OWN THE MESSAGE BOARD AND THAT WE SHOULD EITHER SIDE WITH YOU OR NOT POST AT ALL. THAT'S WHY I SUBSCRIBED TO THE PEWTER REPORT THE OTHER NIGHT; TO SHOW YOU THAT EVEN FANS THAT WANT GRUDEN TO BE FIRED ARE STILL VERY MUCH BUC FANS. I HAVE NEVER SEEN A BUNCH OF ADULTS ACT LIKE CHILDREN. I WISH TO GOD I COULD HAVE SEEN MANY OF YOU AT PARRIS ISLAND WITH ME ABOUT 18 YEARS AGO; THE FIRST THING THEY DO IS SEND THE BABIES HOME!
GROW UP AND START ACTING LIKE PEOPLE WITH SENSE. I'M A BAPTIST PREACHER AND MANY OF YOU ACT WORSE THAN THOSE THAT ATTEND CHURCH; MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY. NO WONDER YOU LIKE GRUDEN.


Just do what I did and make points that they can't debate and they will just shut up and jit will ustify your position.

blitz

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#71 : November 21, 2006, 06:57:16 PM

No coach is exempt; not even with a ring on his finger.

I've never seen a single person on this board ever say Gruden was exempt from anything.   But given the circumstances of lost draft picks and aging  veterans, it's not yet time to even consider getting rid of him.    I don't understand the mindset of anyone who would think that it would be a good move to find a new head coach at this point.   

Exactly.   You can't over estimate how deflating for the team was Simms early performance.   It's a young offensive team and the truth is it's going to get younger on D real soon.    The only thing coaches can do about dropped balls is find guys who will catch them.   Same with int's and blocked passes.  That's where coaching comes in.  Either fix it or find guys who will.

 
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