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: December 11, 2006, 11:20:27 PM

We are five years into the Jon Gruden plan and here we are. He is gung ho for a rookie quarterback who would be third string on the Florida Gators roster. This guy Gradkowski is not an NFL quarterback, if he were waived I would guess that no team would pick him up. The lowly Tim Rattey had 90 + yards in three minutes of play. Inexcusable to not have an adequate backup to Simms going in to the season. Gruden has got to be the most stubborn coach in the league, the Bucs are the only team not to use the shotgun formation, even though Gradkowski excelled using this in college.
Gruden is dead set on letting Mike Alstott wither away and run out his tenure as a Buc role player rather then let him carry the ball. The few times he gets a chance he inspires the team and the fans. I can see that Alstott is far from done, and apparently Gruden did not watch any tape of him during the Dungy era. I am not suggesting that Alstott be a featured back, even though he could be. I am suggesting that he get more carries. I remember when it was Dunn and Alstott equally sharing the load. Alstott had many 100 yard games and Dunn is still doing his part in Atlanta and on the verge of yet another 1000 yard season, so I don't think its appropriate to talk about age with regard to Alstott.
Bruce Allen and Gruden have let the heart and soul of this team slip away via free agency, guys like Sapp and Lynch should still be here. I can darn near put togther a roster of guys they have let go who would field a pretty darn good team.
Gruden and Allen have managed to run this team into the ground.

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#1 : December 11, 2006, 11:21:47 PM

I can put togther a roster of guys they have let go who would field a pretty darn good team.

stop talkin' and start walkin' then...

I'd like to see the roster you put together.

begin.


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#2 : December 11, 2006, 11:22:20 PM

Sigh. What a load of crap.

karen anderson

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#3 : December 11, 2006, 11:23:54 PM

WD40

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#4 : December 12, 2006, 01:25:00 AM

Offensive skill positions
RB: Warrick Dunn, Thomas Jones
WR: Keyshawn Johnson, Keenan McCardell
FB: Lorenzo Neal
QB: Brad Johnson

Defensive
limeman:
Warren Sapp, Booger, Chartric Darby
LB:
Al Singleton, Ian Gold
DB:
Donnie Abraham, John Lynch, Dexter Jackson
Just a few names without doing some research

Boid Fink

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#5 : December 12, 2006, 01:36:45 AM

We are five years into the Jon Gruden plan and here we are. He is gung ho for a rookie quarterback who would be third string on the Florida Gators roster. This guy Gradkowski is not an NFL quarterback, if he were waived I would guess that no team would pick him up. The lowly Tim Rattey had 90 + yards in three minutes of play. Inexcusable to not have an adequate backup to Simms going in to the season. Gruden has got to be the most stubborn coach in the league, the Bucs are the only team not to use the shotgun formation, even though Gradkowski excelled using this in college.
Gruden is dead set on letting Mike Alstott wither away and run out his tenure as a Buc role player rather then let him carry the ball. The few times he gets a chance he inspires the team and the fans. I can see that Alstott is far from done, and apparently Gruden did not watch any tape of him during the Dungy era. I am not suggesting that Alstott be a featured back, even though he could be. I am suggesting that he get more carries. I remember when it was Dunn and Alstott equally sharing the load. Alstott had many 100 yard games and Dunn is still doing his part in Atlanta and on the verge of yet another 1000 yard season, so I don't think its appropriate to talk about age with regard to Alstott.
Bruce Allen and Gruden have let the heart and soul of this team slip away via free agency, guys like Sapp and Lynch should still be here. I can darn near put togther a roster of guys they have let go who would field a pretty darn good team.
Gruden and Allen have managed to run this team into the ground.

Skip, the Bucs had no money to lure in attractive FA prospects.  HE did try to  get Garcia, but Garcia did not sign here, nothing to be said about effort though, huh?

He did Sign Fiedler, and although he had a shoulder injury problem, it was thought to be a problem that was not going to sideline him for the year.  It did.

McCown blew an ACL in minicamps.  Whose fault is that now?

Rattay was brought in for insurance last year, and is still on the roster.  He has not cut it in TC, or in the Preseason, OR practice enough to beat out a noodle armed QB like Grads, who was drafted round 6.

And then Simms got hurt.

Now bear in mind, QBs of worth usually command some money, and Gruden had hardly any to play with.  So he did the best he could, and the ciurcumstance was one disaster after another.  And as far as Grads excelling in the Shotgun, well, if he isn't worth a third string role on the Gators, I guess there isn't much to say about your little quip either.

Think for yourself, stop listening to the retreads on the radio who have an agenda.  Who find it easier to blame the coach because of their manfetish for cetain players.  And please stop reading the horsedung on the TBBBB, that is a sure sign you might be a grazer, in other words, a sheep.

Know the situation better before ranting and raving.  Help make Tampa Bay have a better Fan Base.



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#6 : December 12, 2006, 01:54:03 AM

Boid Fink,
Please don't tell me how to think. I have been a Bucs fan since 1976, had season tickets since the early 80's.  You can look through your rose colored glasses all you want. I have been through the Leeman Bennett, Richard Williamson and Sam Wyche days. I see this team regressing, I see us doing away with guys like Thomas Jones only to use a first round draft pick to replace him. This team has won based on solid defense, you can go back as far as 1979 and see that this team won on defense. I have watched Gruden and Allen drain the cupboard on the defensive side of the ball and invest everything on offense and what do we have to show for it? Damn near last in every offensive catagory.
If your gonna give Gradkowski a chance, let him do what he did best in college which was run the shotgun. Jay Fiedler was a last minute desperate attempt at some help when Luke McCown went down, if Luke McCown was to be the next man in line where the hell is he now? Standing there holding a clip board. If he is not prepared to play, the why is he in uniform? Another thing to remember is that if the Bucs wanted someone bad enough in free agency there is always a way to make it work. There are all kinds of ways to structure contracts.
Grudens hand he is playing with is his own hand, his choices, his team. He has had five years to mold this team anyway he chooses, this is what we have.

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#7 : December 12, 2006, 02:06:45 AM

Boid Fink,
Please don't tell me how to think. I have been a Bucs fan since 1976, had season tickets since the early 80's.  You can look through your rose colored glasses all you want. I have been through the Leeman Bennett, Richard Williamson and Sam Wyche days. I see this team regressing, I see us doing away with guys like Thomas Jones only to use a first round draft pick to replace him. This team has won based on solid defense, you can go back as far as 1979 and see that this team won on defense. I have watched Gruden and Allen drain the cupboard on the defensive side of the ball and invest everything on offense and what do we have to show for it? Damn near last in every offensive category.
If your gonna give Gradkowski a chance, let him do what he did best in college which was run the shotgun. Jay Fiedler was a last minute desperate attempt at some help when Luke McCown went down, if Luke McCown was to be the next man in line where the hell is he now? Standing there holding a clip board. If he is not prepared to play, the why is he in uniform? Another thing to remember is that if the Bucs wanted someone bad enough in free agency there is always a way to make it work. There are all kinds of ways to structure contracts.
Grudens hand he is playing with is his own hand, his choices, his team. He has had five years to mold this team anyway he chooses, this is what we have.

Okay, I won't tell you how to think.  I guess the guys at the TBBBB and radio have done enough of that for you.

Did you even read my post?  It was in direct response to yours.  I could care less about your resume with the Bucs.  SO what does that prove?  That you are older than me?  Congrats man.  Obviously with some, wisdom comes a little slower.  I never told you how to think, I was offering up rebuttal to your claim that there was no attempt made to bring in a backup.

Who exactly are the Bucs going to bring in with three peanuts and a promissory note?  Ken Anderson?  Remember him?  He is a little old, but he might be tempted to come out for league min, wouldn't you think?  Maybe they should have signed WHOEVER YOU DESIRED, but the point is, with what money?

You say to go into the season with no backup is inexcusable, but then bring up the five year plan.  How can you do that?  Luke McCown might still be hurt.  He BLEW A KNEE SKIP.  In TC, which wasn't that long ago, in terms of healing knee injuries.  And yes, Fiedler was a last ditch effort at shoring up depth.  But again, with what money can Gruden sign a QB with?  A QB with some reasonable skills?  There is no way to sign one with no money SKip.  There is always a way to sign someone?  You make it sound as if the Bucs could get ANYONE, by backloading a contract for who exactly?  Who would you have signed?  I am sure Gruden, who LOVES Qbs is more aware of the workings on the waiver wire than you, or I, are.  Hard to buy a Mercedes on a Kia budget man.

Gruden won the South last year, remember that?  Or has your senility set in already?  Stop being so fickle as to forget the positive Gruden has done for this franchise.  His name will foreveer be attached to last years Division Championship, and to the Lombardi that you brag on.  That you could never brag on before.  Show some respect, Richard.


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#8 : December 12, 2006, 03:09:01 AM

dunn left when the bucs couldn't match the load of dough the falcons gave him and neal was gone about 3 years before gruden got here...at least 3.

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#9 : December 12, 2006, 05:36:19 AM

We are five years into the Jon Gruden plan and here we are.

Here we are with a Superbowl and a division championship.   Here we go again with somebody saying "Where have we gotten in five years?" We got a Superbowl and a division championship. Thats where. 

 The first year we won the Superbowl. The second year was the run to repeat, and at the time most of us thought we had a dynasty on our hands.  People choose to forget those facts, that McKay signed on players to fat contracts because we were supposed to be a dynasty.  And every fan thought we were that.

Realistically this is only three years into a Gruden plan, and one of those years we went 11-5 and won the division.  It wasn't until after the second Gruden year when it became evident that we needed to overhaul the team, and we had to do that while up against the cap because of the veterans who were rewarded with big contracts, and we had to do that without young draft picks that were traded for Gruden, Kenyatta, and KJ.  Still we won one division championship out of it.

And here we are, with Gruden able to rebuild with the draft picks he finally has, and the cap money he finally has. I don't like where we are at the moment.  I don't like all the moves Gruden has made. I give him an "F" for this year.  At 3-10 there is no other grade to give.    So I don't like where "we are."

But I do like where we are going.  I like that we have the cap space and draft picks coming up. I like that the team is staying together and isn't starting to fall apart and backstab and give the finger to the crowd.

People shouldn't be that surprised that this team is going through a rough patch.   Its fair to criticize Gruden because there have been plenty of times when coaches have fared a lot better with teams that were supposed to be going through hard times.   But its not fair to demonize him and call him a liar like someone else did or to say "Where are we in five years" as if he has gone through five straight losing seasons.

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#10 : December 12, 2006, 06:26:45 AM

The only problem was that the Bucs "dynasty" started in 1999 and lasted through 2003 and the Bucs have one Super Bowl to show for it. In this day and age, decade-long dynasties are a pipe dream. The Bucs had 5 years to win Super Bowls with players in their prime before the salary cap became too great to overcome and age started robbing players of their health and performance. The problem was that some of McKay's contract blunders came AFTER the Super Bowl (extensions for McFarland, Rice, Keyshawn, Brad Johnson) in 2003. Deals for McFarland and Rice seemed okay at the time, but in hindsight, they helped send this team into cap hell with Rice's astronomical cap number and McFarland's lack of production given how rich his contract was.

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#11 : December 12, 2006, 09:13:32 AM

The only problem was that the Bucs "dynasty" started in 1999 and lasted through 2003

What basis does this statement even have?

I'll go you one better and toss both Gruden and Dungy even further under the bus. The defense has been "dynastic",  top 10 in the league from 1997-2005 with the exception of #12 in 2000. There's no reason to call 1999 dynastic and not call 2005 dynastic in the same way. 8 years of defensive dominance have been mostly fritter away with a series of crummy offense both Dungy and Gruden.

BTW, good you show up and carry Gruden's H20 on this front wth the usual "cap hell" excuse. Oh, let's not forget the bug-a-boo of Rice's contract. Good thing a guy like McNabb doesn't have a deal like that, or Brady or Manning becuase that has crippled those team's ability to compete year in and year out.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

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#12 : December 12, 2006, 09:16:32 AM

Offensive skill positions
RB: Warrick Dunn: Atlanta paid him a lot more money than the Bucs were willing to, Thomas Jones: Chicago paid him a lot more money than the Bucs were willing to
WR: Keyshawn Johnson: if the Bucs had him instead of Galloway, the team would have ZERO deep threats instead of one, Keenan McCardell: tell me how many other NFL teams re-negotiate contracts with more than one year left
FB: Lorenzo Neal: gone way before Gruden
QB: Brad Johnson: Minnesota has a better team but he isn't playing any better than when he was in Tampa

Defensive
lineman: Warren Sapp: not nearly worth what Oakland paid him, Booger: not nearly worth the contract McKay signed him to, Chartric Darby: bit player
LB: Al Singleton: bit player not nearly worth what Dallas gave him, Ian Gold: Denver paid him a ton more money than what Tampa could
DB: Donnie Abraham: retired, John Lynch: should have kept him, Dexter Jackson: average at best not worth what Arizona gave him

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#13 : December 12, 2006, 09:18:16 AM

People shouldn't be that surprised that this team is going through a rough patch.   Its fair to criticize Gruden because there have been plenty of times when coaches have fared a lot better with teams that were supposed to be going through hard times.   But its not fair to demonize him and call him a liar like someone else did or to say "Where are we in five years" as if he has gone through five straight losing seasons.

Sure it is. I love this "fairness" thing. Let's use the Grudenista logic that Lil' Johnny here is been in rebuilding mode since 2002. The whole team was lost. We can ignore he had defenses as good as those that went before 2002 and so all he had to do was craft and average offense and things might have been different. We'll ignore that. Fine, he's rebuilding, what has he "built" in that time? QB? Nope. RB....maybe. WR? Nope. OL, nope. DL? Nope. LB? Maybe MLB. CB, nope. S, nope.

Now, here come all the "cap hell" stuff and draft pick excuses but what we've got right now are two question marks at RB and MLB and a lot o noada on anywhere else. That is really not a lot to show for 4 years of rebuilding effort. It isn't just that we're bad it is how bad we are and how right now this team doesn't look to have a future.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

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#14 : December 12, 2006, 09:20:33 AM

Offensive skill positions
RB: Warrick Dunn, Thomas Jones
WR: Keyshawn Johnson, Keenan McCardell
FB: Lorenzo Neal
QB: Brad Johnson

Defensive
limeman:
Warren Sapp, Booger, Chartric Darby
LB:
Al Singleton, Ian Gold
DB:
Donnie Abraham, John Lynch, Dexter Jackson
Just a few names without doing some research

Lorenzo Neal was gone way before Gruden got here, balme the best evaluators of Offensive talent on the planet Tony Dungy & Rch McKay for that one. Ooooppps I forgot Dungy & McKay are considered perfect in the eyes of the casual Tampa sports fan.

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