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DanTurksGhost

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#30 : January 08, 2007, 10:20:27 AM

McKay laid the foundationwork for our super bowl team. Reynolds can spout off all he wants about how Gruden brought in players for the super bowl run. It was the McKay guys (Sapp, Lynch, Brooks ect..) that make it happen.

McKay didn't draft any of those guys.

MiltonMack21

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#31 : January 08, 2007, 10:29:31 AM

McKay (Falcon Fans) will never get it.


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#32 : January 08, 2007, 10:34:10 AM

McKay laid the foundationwork for our super bowl team. Reynolds can spout off all he wants about how Gruden brought in players for the super bowl run. It was the McKay guys (Sapp, Lynch, Brooks ect..) that make it happen.

McKay didn't draft any of those guys.

Sapp and Brooks he was the GM. He surely drafted them as sure as he drafted Kenyatta Walker.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

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#33 : January 08, 2007, 10:38:54 AM

McKay laid the foundationwork for our super bowl team. Reynolds can spout off all he wants about how Gruden brought in players for the super bowl run. It was the McKay guys (Sapp, Lynch, Brooks ect..) that make it happen.

McKay didn't draft any of those guys.

Sapp and Brooks he was the GM. He surely drafted them as sure as he drafted Kenyatta Walker.
But Wyche made the decision.

They were more Wyche picks than they were McKay picks.

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DanTurksGhost

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#34 : January 08, 2007, 10:41:34 AM

Sapp and Brooks he was the GM. He surely drafted them as sure as he drafted Kenyatta Walker.

Incorrect. McKay wanted to stay put and draft Mike Mamula. He was afraid of Sapp's character issues.

dalbuc

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#35 : January 08, 2007, 10:44:10 AM

But Wyche made the decision.

They were more Wyche picks than they were McKay picks.

So that was the not power mad McKay that let coaches make decision? C'mon decide on who this guy is and then go after him.

As for the "he didn't want to crap" in the end he picked who he picked. That's the end result. If you don't like that then take the Gruden drafted Marquis Walker flack too.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

DanTurksGhost

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#36 : January 08, 2007, 10:48:34 AM

So that was the not power mad McKay that let coaches make decision? C'mon decide on who this guy is and then go after him.

McKay wrested control of personnel away from Sam Wyche after the draft. In fact, ironically, McKay used the Sapp/Brooks draft as fuel for his argument to the Glazers on why he should have full personnel control. McKay felt that the assistant coaches were too involved in the draft under Wyche (he referred to Sam's Sapp/Brooks draft as a "circus") because ultimately it was Rusty Tillman who lobbied for Sapp and Brooks. Until that point, Sam Wyche had contractually full personnel control.

That's how it happened.

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#37 : January 08, 2007, 11:02:18 AM

Dan, you should write a book if you know all of this, lol

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dalbuc

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#38 : January 08, 2007, 11:07:00 AM

McKay wrested control of personnel away from Sam Wyche after the draft. In fact, ironically, McKay used the Sapp/Brooks draft as fuel for his argument to the Glazers on why he should have full personnel control. McKay felt that the assistant coaches were too involved in the draft under Wyche (he referred to Sam's Sapp/Brooks draft as a "circus") because ultimately it was Rusty Tillman who lobbied for Sapp and Brooks. Until that point, Sam Wyche had contractually full personnel control.

That's how it happened.

..and no GM picks guys without input from their coaches, scouts and personnel guys. The fact that he was GM when they were selected gives him credit. i don't want to see anyone in here trying to dodge Walker with "well the OL coaches really loved him" for example either. The man at the top draws the credit/blame for what those below him do. Way of the world.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

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#39 : January 08, 2007, 11:12:36 AM

Dan, you should write a book if you know all of this, lol

It had been considered in the past, but ultimately went nowhere.

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#40 : January 08, 2007, 11:16:19 AM

..and no GM picks guys without input from their coaches, scouts and personnel guys. The fact that he was GM when they were selected gives him credit. i don't want to see anyone in here trying to dodge Walker with "well the OL coaches really loved him" for example either. The man at the top draws the credit/blame for what those below him do. Way of the world.

Unless the coach, who had full control of personnel, completely overrules the GM's preference. McKay did not want to trade down, he was prepared to take Mike Mamula. Wyche didn't let that happen, thanks to the impassioned pleas of Rusty Tillman. I don't know how you want to try and spin this, but the fact is that McKay had virtually no impact on the Sapp/Brooks draft, other than to follow Sam Wyche's instructions.

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#41 : January 08, 2007, 12:30:50 PM

I've always been skeptical about the Gruden/Westbrook thing - it just seems like a bit of revisionism by the Gruden camp. I'm sure Gruden was intrigued by Westbrook, but everything I read at the time was that one of his own coaches, Stan Parrish, was a big factor in the decision to take Walker. Walker had even lived briefly with Parrish when Parrish was at Michigan. And Walker, on the surface at least, was a fit for this offense. 

Maybe I'm way off base, but I tend to give both McKay and Gruden a bit of a pass for that draft. The Bucs started off well behind everybody else in the league. The GM and no doubt some of his staff were heavily involved in a coaching search and I'd imagine quite a few of the personnel guys questioned whether they would have jobs. Gruden was cut off from his Raiders' staff, and had to spend time putting together a staff. All of this happened fairly late in the game. 

I suspect that as hard-working as Gruden is, he had a full plate - to expect him to have much more than a surface knowledge of a lot of these players I think is unrealistic. And it probably wasn't easy for McKay's team to switch gears either. After all, they probably had been scouting guys all year long with one type of offense in mind.

Also, that was a hard team to draft for - after free agency, there simply weren't a lot of spots on the roster.

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#42 : January 08, 2007, 12:33:43 PM

Good post.

I see it the same way as well.  This is why coaching changes need to be made early not late in the game or else you are behind the eight ball. 
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PewterReportSR

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#43 : January 08, 2007, 04:01:24 PM

I've always been skeptical about the Gruden/Westbrook thing - it just seems like a bit of revisionism by the Gruden camp. I'm sure Gruden was intrigued by Westbrook, but everything I read at the time was that one of his own coaches, Stan Parrish, was a big factor in the decision to take Walker. Walker had even lived briefly with Parrish when Parrish was at Michigan. And Walker, on the surface at least, was a fit for this offense. 

Maybe I'm way off base, but I tend to give both McKay and Gruden a bit of a pass for that draft. The Bucs started off well behind everybody else in the league. The GM and no doubt some of his staff were heavily involved in a coaching search and I'd imagine quite a few of the personnel guys questioned whether they would have jobs. Gruden was cut off from his Raiders' staff, and had to spend time putting together a staff. All of this happened fairly late in the game. 

I suspect that as hard-working as Gruden is, he had a full plate - to expect him to have much more than a surface knowledge of a lot of these players I think is unrealistic. And it probably wasn't easy for McKay's team to switch gears either. After all, they probably had been scouting guys all year long with one type of offense in mind.

Also, that was a hard team to draft for - after free agency, there simply weren't a lot of spots on the roster.


I can shed some light on this. Part of the rift between Gruden and McKay came about because of this draft. Gruden was hired in mid-February and had to spend time hiring coaches, training those coaches, evaluating his own roster and scouring free agency. He knew of McKay's reputation as being a good drafting G.M. and let McKay take over the draft because he didn't have the time to evaluate the college prospects with only two months until draft time. Gruden wasn't too thrilled about Walker because he wanted Brian Westbrook, especially since he never got to coach Warrick Dunn, who left just after he got there for more money in Atlanta.

So Walker was the pick, and McKay made it up to Gruden by taking RB Travis Stephens in round four. After the first mini-camp, Gruden was furious because Walker was slow, not too bright and didn't take well to coaching. Yes, Stan Parrish had some influence over this pick because he vouched for Walker, but that was the beginning of the end for him in Tampa Bay.

Gruden was miffed that Stephens couldn't catch a cold. He was dropping passes during mini-camp, training camp, preseason, etc. and was never heavily involved in the passing game at Tennessee. Gruden told McKay and Tim Ruskell that he needed a back who could catch the ball out of the backfield and they served up Stephens. To McKay's credit, he listened to what Gruden wanted in free agency and signed Michael Pittman.

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#44 : January 08, 2007, 04:18:34 PM

Wow - thanks Scott. I had forgotten about the badness that was Travis Stephens.
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