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  1. 1

    Horse

    Anyone who blames this game on the Coaches needs to have their head examinbed. This was strictly a player’s loss. Fumbles, penalties, dropped passes, not enough defensive line pressure on the QB, lack of defensive run stopping strength, summed up the main issues in this game for me. Yes we could have won; we didn’t. The team played hard, but haven’t yet learned how to consistently win. We are close, but for me it’s the same ole words; one more draft for defensive players will do it. Go Bucs! lets take it out on the Cowboys!

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    1. 1.1

      pinkstob

      I agree with you for the most part Horse even though I believe the coaches have to take some of the blame also for not having the players prepared properly. Also I haven’t said anything about L. David all season but at the midway point I’m concerned enough to bring him up specifically. He was not performed well in the Tampa 2 last year or this year which calls into question why Licht made him the highest paid 4-3 LB in the NFL. The contract for McCoy made sense at the time because McCoy had his best season last year in this offense, but L. David has had his best two years in Schiano’s defense. Since David didn’t have many splash plays last year either…well, I’m just saying even knowing what we knew at the time of the signing we overpaid for David based on what he had done in this defense. Horse and Simeon Rice are right that these players just aren’t good enough, but to make one of those players the highest paid at their position is making less and less sense every Sunday.

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      1. 1.1.1

        pinkstob

        Sorry about the typos…I’m kinda sleepy.

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    2. 1.2

      EastEndBoy

      I hear what your saying horse about plenty of player blame in this one…but (and I guess I’ll go get my head examined), we had a chance to win the game with about 5mins to play and the ball across mid field…our coaches decided on 1) long bomb, 2) time out, 3) pass short to Evans, 4) pass short to Evans, 5) punt. I think we’ve suffered all year from strange play calling and this is symptomatic of the problem. We should – with 5 mins to go down by 5 points – be trying to make this drive the last drive of the game (ie the game winning drive). Why are we throwing bombs – that at best gets us a quick TD and gives Eli the ball back with 4 mins to go. Why are we calling timeout…total waste (JW was ready to go and we may need that timeout – as it turns out we did). Why are we not running the ball at all in this sequence. Why are we not trying to move 5 yards on 3rd down so that 4th down becomes make able. Why are we punting and hoping that our defense will hold and give us the ball back with some reasonable time (and zero timeouts again)…We were in position to march the field, run out the clock and take multiple shots at the end zone from inside the redzone…none of that guaranteed of course, but the sequence we ran was head shaking at best.

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  2. 2

    macabee

    I agree Horse,
    Too many key players are hurt or MIA. It was all Winston, Evans, and the rookies. I’m not going to beat up Mike Evans because we all know he can play better and he will.
    Even the backups or depth is hurt. You can’t beat a good team without weapons and tonight we brought a knife to a gunfight.
    But we did fight – there is no quit in our Bucs, but you just aren’t going to win many of those. The problem is what Horse says, some of them are just not good enough. I’m not going to name names and I won’t make excuses, there was plenty bad out there and I’m not going to re-hash the game – all of you saw it. Bottom line, when we do get chances to win, we can’t drop balls and we need TDs in the red zone, not FGs.
    Lots to complain about, but lots to look forward to also. For one thing – we got us a QB and the other things can be fixed, just not now.
    I laugh and I cry, but “I ain’t mad at cha”. lol.

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    1. 2.1

      Horse

      Macabee; agree with you and Pinkstob. It could be worse. Next season is going to be a different story. I expect about a dozen players who are actually starting either due to injuries or not, won’t be on this team. I can see the progress from this year compared to last year and next season looks very promising. We have some good people drafting good players; it’s been a long time since I can make that statement. Go Bucs!

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  3. 3

    owlykat

    I also agree with Horse’s comments. Evans had five drops that cost us the game, but we were competitive nevertheless because of Winston. We lost Marpet but I have been saying EDS is a better Guard than Center and he held his own. Dontae Dye needs to be sent back to the Practice Squad–he was worthless. We need to activate our receiver from Central Florida who outplayed Dye the entire Preseason. We can beat Dallas next week. Keep your chin up Buc’s!!!

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  4. 4

    bucterp

    The stupid penalties continue apace. We are on record breaking ground here. Yes, of course, the players are making the poor decisions, but it also reflects back on coaching. Lovie told us this would be “cleaned up”. When? We are not good enough to recover from all these fouls.

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  5. 5

    surferdudes

    My shrink appointment is later this month, so I will be getting my head examined. Horse, we had four 4th, and goals, and kicked field goals all four times. Lovie Smith is a no balls loser, and his team plays like it. Lovie picks up pennies off the street knowing some day he’ll have a nickle. Lovie, rumor has it if you dare take this road you might find a dime. Nope, I go this road every time, always find three pennies. Sorry Horse, our coach is a ball less loser. Let me ask, didn’t you say out loud at least one out of the those four times GO FOR IT!! Nope, gonna kick me a field goal, oops, missed that one. Horse why do you think we got caught with our pants down by Washington’s onside kick? Because Lovie would never dream of such Tom foolery, that Devil Gruden tricked me. The team, Giants, that went for it on 4th down and didn’t convert, won the game. Teams take on the personality of their coach, in Tampa’s case that’s safe, and sorry.

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    1. 5.1

      Horse

      surferdudes; i do blame it on the players because we were forced into those situations because of poor execution. Yes i was okay with kicking the field goals because our players couldn’t execute the plays given to them prior to 4th down. These aren’t robots and yes this game is on them. coaches can only do so much; the players have to do a better job.

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  6. 6

    scubog

    Easy to second guess plays that fail. I did think a little ball control toward the end of the game with 7 or so minutes left to keep the ball away from Manning would be the safe route. Here, we want to be ballsy, but are critical of the deep passes. I had no problem with kicking the field goals. My concern is the difficulty we have passing into the end zone from inside the 10. I suspect Jackson and ASJ missing is more of an impact than we think. Also think Jameis is being cautious.

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  7. 7

    surferdudes

    Scu, I’m not second guessing plays that failed, but rather plays that never took place. You’re O.K. with always kicking field goals so you’re O.K. with Lovie, I’m not. Against Manning, ODBJ, it’s like bringing a knife to a gun fight. There’s a reason Lovie spent a year in his basement, no one wanted him. He was a mistake hire, Glazers need to correct it.

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  8. 8

    drdneast

    Definitely saw some improvement in the defensive backfield this week. Verner’s INT was a great play.
    I agree with the person who spoke out on Dontae Dye. He has contributed very little while Humphries knows how to find the soft spot in zone coverage and has great hands.
    Can’t fault the DL that much as far as no sacks.
    Like the rest of the QB’s who play against us, Manning used a lot of quick 3 and 5 step drops. He only threw one long pass to Beckham all might.
    Despite the fact the ball was coming out fast, the DL was in Mannings face more than a few times.
    It’s just damn hard to sack a QB when the ball is coming out in less than 3 seconds.
    All of those FGs just killed us. just to many FGs.
    The Bucs really need to work on their red zone efficiency.

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  9. 9

    drdneast

    Surferdude, if you want to blame the defense on Lovie, have at it.
    But as far as the offense is concerned and any play calling on that side of the ball, you need to fix your sights on Dirk Koetter.
    This is the main problem I have with all the people who want to fire Lovie, they blame him for everything including the fact Mike Evans got a bad case of Clayton hands in the rain which I know you didn’t.

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    1. 9.1

      EastEndBoy

      @drdneast – it’s a good point about Koetter vis-à-vis the play selection…but it’s definitely Lovie who makes the 4th down decisions to kick or go for it….in Koetter’s case, he’s just trying to score on every possession, so I have a little sympathy for him in calling the 2 (maddening) long bombs on our last drive…

      IMO, Lovie is the one who is supposed to have the bigger picture in mind and telling Koetter “use up the whole 5 minutes on this drive, and if we get to 4th down we’re going to go for it, so keep all of that in mind as you call these plays”…I don’t have proof of course, but it doesn’t seem like that conversation happened…now maybe you can say Koetter should have known that anyway…but of course, when we did get to 4th down Lovie chose to punt, so if I was Koetter, I would be pretty confused by Lovie too…

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  10. 10

    stlbucsfan

    Lovie is the problem and his flaws continue to show up on gameday. Is he responsible for the Mike Evans drops, of course not. But he is responsible for the fact that we have only forced 1 punt in the last 8 or 9 quarters. He is responsible for the fact that we have Tim Jennings, Mike Jenkins and Alterraun Verner lined up at CB instead of Darrelle Revis. He is responsible for the most penalized team in football bc good teams don’t commit the bone headed penalties that we do. Committing personal fouls has nothing to do with talent but everything to do with focus and that falls on the HC. He is also responsible for us overpaying Michael Johnson based off on one good season. He is responsible for us wasting a draft pick to acquire Geroge Johnson who has done absolutely nothing for the pass rush. His defense is predicated on getting to the QB with the front four. The inability to either acquire players that fit your scheme or change your scheme to fit your players falls squarely on his shoulders. In one breath he doesn’t need lockdown corners bc “his scheme” doesn’t need it yet the results show that couldn’t be further from the truth. The best things about the Bucs over the last 2 years have come from the draft which he has very little to do with. For those so quick to stick up for Lovie please find one player on defense whose play has improved since Lovie has been HC. It seems we have a much longer list of players underachieving than those maximizing what talents they do have.

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    1. 10.1

      pinkstob

      Stlbucsfan I know you’re pissed and I am too but it’s important to be fair in terms of who is doing what when it’s time to make heads role. Lovie has nothing to do with how much FA’s get paid, that’s Licht’s job so Michael Johnson falls on him. Lovie can want a player all he wants but it’s up to Licht to give the green light or not. For example, PR reported that Lovie also wanted to sign Devin Hester and Charles Tillman last year but Licht said no because they wanted too much money relative to their skillset. However, Licht gave the green light to Michael Johnson, Collins, etc so that falls on Licht. The same goes for George Johnson this year. Licht wanted Cole and other DE’s, swung and missed and gave up more compensation than he should have for George Johnson. Compensation, be it money or draft picks are 100% Licht’s jurisdiction, not Lovie’s. Now as for Lovie I’m not going to defend him because I don’t care if he goes but to answer your question McCoy had his best year as a pro last season in Lovie’s defense. However, one player is not good enough for Lovie to stay.

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  11. 11

    stlbucsfan

    Lovie pretty much got Licht the GM job so of course year one he was going to go out and get the players Lovie wanted. Once we saw how that turned out it appears Licht took more control and had a more structured approach to FA. Not saying Licht doesn’t have any blame for paying them but I blame the guy who wants these busts in the first place. Also McCoy’s best season came in 2013 under Schiano when he had more tackles and sacks than last year. That also was the last season we saw the artist formally known as Lavonte David. I want Lovie to make it bc the last thing we need is another HC, but each Sunday I feel like the real deficiency lies on the sidelines.

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    1. 11.1

      pinkstob

      Well, what I’m trying to say is that even in year one Licht didn’t get all the players Lovie wanted because he didn’t get Tillman and Hester. Licht had the right to tell Lovie no on any player he saw fit in year one yet only chose to do so with those two guys. Now I see what you’re saying in terms of McCoy having more sacks and tackles in 2013, but I gave the nod to the 2014 season only because of the production he mustered in 3 fewer games due to injury (one less sack in 2014 despite 3 fewer games). That one is certainly debatable but either way we’re splitting hairs because either way it shouldn’t be enough to save Lovie after the season if the team continues to play this poorly.

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    2. 11.2

      cgmaster27

      Well it appears the Bucs have snatched victory from the jaws of defeat again. As for the game, I am relying onmy fellow pewter report brothers to lead me as I missed the game yesterday and was watching a gamecast on my phone.
      I couldn’t see incompletions etc, but it seemed Jameis was doing his thing on third downs as well as that beautiful diving td.
      ANd was very surprised to see the number of drops from Evans. I have been a critic of his catching skills all season and today he broke records. He has got a ton of talent, you don’t get 155 yards receiving without major talent, but I think he’s pressing too much.
      From what I saw statistically our secondary played better today than it has all season. Again I didn’t watch the game so I’ll rely on you guys for that one.
      AS for our defensive line, well, they all suck. Mccoy our ghost of a captain was invisible again and decided he was going to dodge the media this time. Mcoy is slowly growing into a premadonna and is no longer a leader on this team.
      Grow a sack mccoy and pretend like you want to earn the massive paycheck you were overpaid with. Leslie frazier has even said multiple times in his press conferences that there is nothing limiting Mccoy on gameday. So whats the excuse? Being doubled doesn’t work either because players of watts caliber deal with it every play as well and still produce. His production has dropped every year since Lovie got here.
      Looks like our offensive line played well again, but again I didn’t watch. Hate to see Ali go out, dude is just a mauler.
      As for redzone stuff, hard for me to say anything without seeing it.
      AS for our other receivers, I really and I mean really like Humphries. I think he can develop into a serious slot receiver given time. But bottom line is we need someone other than Evans on the field as a threat. VJ and ASJ being sidelined is really handicapping this offense.
      Finally as for Lovie, I heard that he actually yelled at Akeem Spence after a play yesterday! BRAVO! Now if Lovie would show more of that fire, I would like him even more. As for the one thing that still drives me nuts about him, can someone else be in charge of timeouts? For heavens sake, we have no timeout by the middle of the 4th quarter!
      Every time Jameis and the offense gets the ball for a winning drive he has like 20 seconds and no timeouts. Lovie is slowly gaining some respect from me, but his game management is still horrible.
      I guess that was a bit long winded from someone who didn’t watch the game but we just need other players with more guts I guess.

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  12. 12

    drdneast

    Lets get off the whole Darell Reavis and FA signing of 2014.
    First of all, Reavis wasn’t worth a $16 million contract. No CB is. That is franchise QB money. To tie that kind of money up in a CB is absurd.
    The idea was to use that money on 3 or 4 other players who would improve the Bucs.
    When they were signed all the experts gushed about who they had inked. It was widely thought by all of the ‘experts’ including Bill Polian that because of the signings the Bucs would contend for the division.
    Sadly, the two main signings. Anthony Collins and Michal Johnson proved to be busts who virtually quit once they received their big bucks.
    But the fact remains all of the so called “experts” originally thought they were great signings.
    Now if you want to hate on Lovie for the same reason that PR does, then have at it.
    Those are valid reasons.
    But that whole Reavis and 2014 FA signings argument is so tired and stale and not really valid.
    BTW, Reavis still isn’t making 16 million a year and the Patriots had to cut him cause they couldn’t keep paying him 12 million a year.

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    1. 12.1

      cgmaster27

      I’d have to agree with you here Drdneast as while his skill set is definitely enviable, NO db is worth that money. That is franchise QB money.

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    2. 12.2

      pinkstob

      Tying that kind of money up in crappy players (no matter how many you get in the deal) is even more absurd. Also, saying the “experts” thought they were great signings is a poor excuse. These are OUR Bucs. We have to be smart enough to know that there is no accountability among any of these experts. None of these “experts” get fired, get demoted or take a pay cut when they are wrong. We as the fans are the only ones who suffer when they are wrong so what the “experts” say should have no bearing on who we as the fans want on our football team. The experts get the same paycheck whether they’re right or wrong while we as the fans pay the owners (directly or indirectly) to watch the product on the field so it our responsibility to let the owners, GM and coaches hear about it when they are doing something stupid. Getting rid of Revis to save money only to spend that money on crappy players was stupid.

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      1. 12.2.1

        cgmaster27

        You make a good point Pink, but you’re speaking from hindsight. What if those players turned out to be good? As a GM you have to take three players over one. We just chose the wrong three in typical buc fashion.

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      2. 12.2.2

        stlbucsfan

        Amen @pinkstob

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  13. 13

    jiggyjoe

    I think I am sure of two things. Winston can lead us to the promised land and Coach Smith is the best coach we can get in Tampa at this time. We have a few good players and a lot of below average players. Until this changes, no coach could do better. BUT, I am pretty sure we have our QB and that is half the battle. Go Bucs….

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  14. 14

    Horse

    There’s no great coaches out there available that’s going to help this team. having a dL takes care a lot of things. This draft will be a big help in fixing our DL and Safety issue. I believe our corners are adequate. I’ve already said enough about the DE’s; it’s the safety’s where I see weakness there too. They play so far back because they aren’t fast enough. Conte was constantly late in his coverage. I still don’t get it why defense doesn’t play tighter because the bombs aren’t hurting us it’s the short passes that’s doing it. I’d take out a Safety and play another CB at that spot; heck put Alexander at Safety.

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  15. 15

    macabee

    First let me say that I am no Lovie Smith apologist. I could give a rat’s about Lovie or any other coach that loses. Having said that, I’m not one given to cutting off my nose to spite my face either.

    Firing Lovie now is not going to fix anything – may satisfy your anger, but does nothing to make players play better. The ship is sinking and many are looking for the captain (Lovie) to throttle him, when all attention should be focused on saving the passengers (Winston and the team).

    Lovie will be dealt with in time if he keeps losing – all losing coaches are. But think of the alternatives. Dirk Koetter is not going to replace Lovie. We got Koetter the same way we got Lovie – dumped from a losing team – the Falcons, when administrations changed. He is not on the list of names that come up for NFL HC interviews. Google is your friend and has lots of reasons why he was let go in Atlanta. Look no further than our red zone woes and in game adjustments. Lovie is not calling the offensive plays and Koetter has admitted as much.

    http://www.rantsports.com/nfl/2013/11/22/atlanta-falcons-must-cut-ties-with-offensive-coordinator-dirk-koetter/

    Then think of who will hire the next coach – the same owners that hired Lovie and the last two losing coaches. Do you feel completely comfortable that the rocket scientists upstairs will get it right this time? Here’s a question for you football statisticians: Who was the last HC hired that kept the incumbent OC? Doesn’t happen, does it? What happens to Winston’s learning curve if he gets a new OC, new scheme, new playbook? What happens to Winston if the next HC is Pinkstob (smile) or a Mariota lover? Is there any guarantee that we won’t repeat the Schiano/Freeman/Glennon saga? No owner is going to force a new coach to take any player. See the Redskins or I would understand if you prefer not!

    Besides those worst case scenarios, I’ve been all over the Interwebs and I can’t find Lovie on anybody’s hot seat except Scott Reynolds and he didn’t feel that way when Lovie was hired. Go to page 136 in the Articles and see how PR thought he might take us back to the Dungy years. Nobody’s perfect and nobody gets it right all the time – not even Lovie!

    On Winston’s progress alone and the desire to maintain it, I will lay you 10 to 1 that Lovie gets another year. The first two drafts were dedicated to the offense and it shows. Let’s have a defensive draft in 2016, then revisit the Lovie Legacy!

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    1. 15.1

      cgmaster27

      Good points on all accounts MAc. I have been one myself leading the charge on the fire Lovie brigade, but your points about progression and keeping Jamies in the same system do ring true ot me. He already knows the playbook well and another season in it will do wonders for him as well as his receivers.
      My two main complaints about lovie has been his lack of fire, and I commended him above for getting into Spence a bit, and his clock management, which was still terrible yesterday.
      The players play hard for him and the last two drafts have been very heavily focused on offense. I think we almost have to give Lovie another year and defensive draft and see what we got. Maybe he can keep a little of that fire he has now. Maybe Jameis is rubbing off on him some.Well stated as always Mac.

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  16. 16

    stlbucsfan

    I’ll stop bringing up Revis when we have NFL caliber CBs that can stop slants and force more than 1 punt in 2 games. Who cares if it was franchise QB money. NEWSFLASH until this draft we didn’t have one and even now he’s cost controlled so that argument is irrelevant. Lovie took an area that didn’t need a drastic overhaul and made it a weakness. If Lovie was listening to these “experts” then he’s on the fast track to joining them on Sundays, analyzing from the studio instead of the sidelines. Again this is not what I want for the Bucs or Jameis but I’m not sure how much good Lovie is doing if the only side of the ball that’s getting better is the one he has nothing to do with.

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    1. 16.1

      cgmaster27

      Ok I’ll roll with you, but let’s look at the other side of the coin. Do you really think revis would’ve mattered last year? I certainly don’t. We sucked on many more levels than secondary. SO he’s on the books that and this year for another 16 million, that is ofcourse if he doesn’t want another raise, which he always does.
      SO think about that, between him Mccoy and david you would have 41 million dollars tied up in three players this season and for the foreseeable future. That’s how you cripple a franchise, see Detroit.

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      1. 16.1.1

        stlbucsfan

        Not sure if it changes the outcome but limiting a teams ability to carve us up with their #1 WR doing the damage would at least help. I’m not really all that concerned with his cap number bc we still would’ve been under the cap and his contract was a series of 1 year deals, so at the point where his play declined or we had proven replacements then he could’ve been cut. If The Bucs had invested 41 mill between those 3 players then judging by what I’m seeing we would still be pissed about the same 2 guys…Lavonte and McCoy.

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  17. 17

    Horse

    Macabee, spot on. Lets get thru this see and evaluate what we need on Defense. My guess right now is 2 De’s, 2 Safety’s, 1 LB.

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